Welcome to "The Art of Selling Online Courses" podcast! Our special guest, Mariana Peña, is a devoted course expert, award-winning instructional designer, and taco enthusiast. Passionate about your message and education? Mariana's here to guide you, helping maximize impact through optimal learning experiences.
With 15+ years collaborating across diverse fields, Mariana has worked with coaches, consultants, authors, speakers, academic institutions, and 7-figure business owners.
Join us as she shares insights into her learner-first course design philosophy, respecting your interdisciplinary knowledge, intersectional perspective, and innovative approach. Don't miss Mariana's expertise on enhancing your online courses!
Mariana's Website: https://mypremiumcourse.com/
If you're interested in growing your online course sales and funnel optimisation contact us at https://datadrivenmarketing.co/
Welcome to "The Art of Selling Online Courses" podcast! Our special guest, Mariana Peña, is a devoted course expert, award-winning instructional designer, and taco enthusiast. Passionate about your message and education? Mariana's here to guide you, helping maximize impact through optimal learning experiences.
With 15+ years collaborating across diverse fields, Mariana has worked with coaches, consultants, authors, speakers, academic institutions, and 7-figure business owners.
Join us as she shares insights into her learner-first course design philosophy, respecting your interdisciplinary knowledge, intersectional perspective, and innovative approach. Don't miss Mariana's expertise on enhancing your online courses!
Mariana's Website: https://mypremiumcourse.com/
If you're interested in growing your online course sales and funnel optimisation contact us at https://datadrivenmarketing.co/
You want to immediately jump until the best secret that you have found, usually forgetting that people are not there yet.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the art of selling online courses. We're here to share winning strategies and secret hacks from top performers in the online course industry. My name is John Ainsworth and today's guest is Mariana Peña.
Speaker 2:Mariana is an instructional designer for visionary creators, consultants and experts who want to make a mark. She helps her clients turn their expertise and knowledge into premium online courses that stand out in a saturated market without overwhelming delay or one size fits all templates that don't reflect their brilliance. She's also worked with some of our clients after we've pointed them to her, and it's had amazing reviews from them. So I wanted to bring on today and talk about what is it that she's been doing with and what some of the things that you can learn from in order to implement in your business. So today we're going to talk about curriculum design how having an amazing curriculum for your online course can help your students to learn faster and better, how it can help you to differentiate yourself from your competitors and some of the common mistakes that people make around this. We'll also go through the process that you should follow in order to make your course Absolutely amazing, Mariana welcome.
Speaker 1:Hello, I'm so happy to be here Nice.
Speaker 2:So Mariana and I met, I think like two or three years ago, someone like that. You came on the summit that we did. Covid had just started, I think yes that's correct 20, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was just in the beginning of Covid where we didn't know, had no idea what was about to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are some of the most common difficulties that online course creators face with course design?
Speaker 1:This is such a good question and it really depends on your own personal experience and the industry that you're in, but I think something that applies to everyone is the fact that when you reach the point as an expert or as a course creator where you feel, oh, I can teach this, you want to immediately jump until the best secret that you have found or the most proven technique or tactic that you have developed, usually forgetting that people are not there yet, and what that means is that then you start creating something that is not going to be useful for the majority of your audience or for the majority of your clients.
Speaker 1:It might be useful in the first round of your course, because you're going to attract people who are almost there yet, people who have you been working with already. But as you grow which we want that for you that's why you jump into course creation. You're going to attract all sorts of people at different levels. So that is the course of the expert, and that is the first thing that when I'm working with clients, I need to remind them. People are not there yet or they do not share your specific background. So we need to step back and think about all the possibilities that your clients or participants or students might be facing and then, with that in mind, advocating for the student, we then start creating a journey for them.
Speaker 2:So what I'm hearing is that the most common difficulty is kind of the curse of knowledge, in that you are, you spent years getting to a certain level, you're excited about the stuff that you've learned. You want to teach people all your coolest, best techniques and they're not ready for that because they haven't done the foundations yet, they haven't done the basics. So you need to take a step back and think about it from the customer's point of view. But as the expert, it's hard to do that, which is why you exist, in order to come in and be like all right, let's just take a step back here and think this through and kind of ask difficult questions. I guess.
Speaker 1:Yes, because to you, as an expert, is already intuitive, and it's not like you're arrogant or you just take things for granted. It's just intuitive for you at this point. So what? People like us, like me, instructional designers, curriculum designers, course experts on the side of the learner, what we do is we take that end point and then we break it down so that we're covering all our bases. We know where to anchor the previous knowledge of the participant, how to scaffold that in order to make sense for them to reach that goal. Yes, in a faster, easier way, but it has to make sense for them, not for you as an expert.
Speaker 2:OK, let's look at it from the other angle. Instead of the mistakes, why is it really important, like what's the benefits that you get if you do good, evidence-based curriculum design?
Speaker 1:Oh well, do we have time for this? The first one is time. At this point, you are the visionary, you are busy and focused on expanding your business. Your online education, business and course creation requires a lot of attention to detail, a lot. So when you pair with someone who has the knowledge and the understanding on learning theories, auto-learning, instructional design, you can just brain dump and say this is what I see at the end.
Speaker 1:I want my participants to be able to deploy these tactics. I want them to be able to implement this. I want them to be able to increase their revenue by this due date or whatever it is that you want them to achieve and feel and that's it, that's it. And then you act as as sort of the expert on the subject, and then I pull everything from your brain and then you don't have to be worried about the order and the structure and how to optimize this, because you just have the vision and you shouldn't be at this point in your business growth. You shouldn't be spending all this time in these little details, because you're not going to be able to see them. Even so, when you bear with someone who understands curriculum design, you can just fly away with that amazing vision that you have for your business, and let us take on the rest.
Speaker 2:Nice. And what's then the benefit to the? So I think the benefit to the student is seems reasonably obvious. We could probably dig into it a little bit. But what's the benefit, business-wise, to the course creator? They make a better course. They've had everything pulled out of the head. They've saved a lot of time Great, they've got a much better quality course. People are going to get better results with it. What does that mean business-wise, in terms of benefits to the course creator?
Speaker 1:Retention. That is the biggest key, because, of course, when we're talking about course creators or experts that dive into online education, they also are busy with how to sell it, the marketing, how to make it grow. And one of the biggest pain points here is okay, yes, I can sell the product, but how can I keep the customer, the client, longer than just one course? We don't want it to be just a one-timer. We want people to not only develop that trust in you as a brand, but also develop that trust in you as a teacher and as a mentor and as a guide, and that takes time. And we want that trust to be so deep that they are going to stay there with you and grow with you. And retention is not something that can be fixed with funnels exclusively or with feedback quizzes. Retention lies within the actual structure of the curriculum. If it's easy to understand, it's easy to implement and it's easy to self-assess, you got a winner in your hands.
Speaker 2:So if there's all those benefits, why do you think it gets overlooked in most of the advice from big coaches?
Speaker 1:That is such a good question. Well, first of all, I think because most of the people want really to believe that, because they've spent so many years doing what they are doing, they are good to teach. I think it's in good faith. I don't think this is a malicious take on anyone, and also I don't think many people know that people like me exist.
Speaker 2:To be honest, I think nobody knows that people like you exist. It's funny, right, because I work in this field, of course creators and I don't hear anybody ever like two people I've heard talk about it you and I had one other person come on who teaches people how to become an instructional designer and I've never heard anybody else, never heard any of our clients talk about it, apart from the ones who we've pointed to work with you. I've never heard anybody else in like for who's like we've interviewed who are course creators themselves.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like a it's not a well-known field, but it's so important.
Speaker 1:It is incredibly important and I don't think people know or realize that. All these big platforms that we're using as course creators good job, you name it all of them they have someone in house that is an instructional designer in charge of their own education tracks, training for staff, but also the university that is facing the clients. That's what we do. So most of instructional designers we tend to work for companies, any company that you can think of. They have a learning and design department.
Speaker 1:Most of them the ones that are related to education, and I don't know why people just assume that if they want to grow an online education business, they can just skip this part. But it's to me it's also difficult as an instructional designer to start on this path because if you work for a company exclusively, you don't have to be thinking about marketing, sales, copywriting. You can just devote your time to the task that you're assigned. If you are in the industry that, I mean that we are both in and all of our listeners I do have to make use of a very wide range of tools and understand marketing tools, copywriting, sales, and not only instructional design. But I have to achieve that sweet spot and merging those two worlds, and that's not easy. So what's the process?
Speaker 2:Let's say, somebody feels like they're at a stage where they're not ready to. They don't have enough money to come and hire somebody like yourself. What's the what's some of the steps that they should go through to put together a good course?
Speaker 1:Practice. You need to be ready to just practice your teaching skills and think that whatever you are creating communication wise or learning wise it's an opportunity to improve your skills as a teacher or as a facilitator. And what you can do is always think about two main questions. The first one, the easiest one for any type of scenario, is if I'm creating this digital product whether it's an online course or a PDF, with something whatever it is a learning podcast how can I best support the person on the other end that is experiencing the most friction with this information? Because we're not creating for the ones who understand immediately, we're not creating for the superstars and the students that are going to be great regardless of our teachings. So we ask ourselves how can I, how can I best support the person on the other end for this, if they are going and experiencing friction within this and that has to be with the community experience the content itself, how they interact with you, whatever it is that you're creating? You can always ask yourself that and answer as honest as you can. But the second one if you're not at the point where you can hire someone to come and create something with you, what you can do is lay it out before you start creating anything.
Speaker 1:This question, when presented with X scenario, the participant will be able to make use of or implement, and you insert the skill, the tool, the knowledge that you want to share, and they will be able to make use of that by following these steps.
Speaker 1:So it's a compounded question. It has two parts. The first part leads you to really pinpoint the most problematic scenario for them that you want to resolve with your information, with your knowledge, and the second part is going to lead you to develop a roadmap. And both parts of this question are essential to any learning product, because auto learning has to do with experiencing and acquiring competence, but also having a clear trajectory for the learning process. If your audience, as auto learners, don't have those both elements, they're not. The learning journey is going to be highly impacted in a negative way. So if you're not at a point where you can hire someone, you can follow that question. When presented with this scenario, the participant will be able to implement this tool or skill and they will be able to do so by following these steps and use that to create the outcome of your product and the roadmap of your product.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that makes sense in terms of giving the overall structure. What about any of the kind of the smaller steps within that? Like, when you're working with somebody, what's the kind of process that you go through?
Speaker 1:When I'm working with someone, we start with the big vision that they have, because anything that we create, it has to outlive the current moment in their business. So we're not creating exclusively for this quarter or this year. Even so, we have to create something that is going to fit in their biggest educational ecosystem. And once we get that vision, the next, the very next step that I follow is to dive into their philosophy, and this is what helps them stand out in saturated markets. Everybody has a different belief system and a different philosophy when it comes to their own industry, their own practices and life itself. So what we do is we combine all of those elements. Then we can start creating things, because your viewpoints are going to influence how we're treating the information and how we're delivering that information to the participants in your course.
Speaker 2:What's next? Once you've gone through the vision, you've gone through the philosophy, what's the next step? You work through with someone.
Speaker 1:The next step is, once we have that, that means that we can create already a methodology for it.
Speaker 1:The methodology is going to be unique to you. This part is very important because it's going to be part of your IP, so that means that you can trademark that. You eventually are going to be able to license that, and this is a part that a lot of course creators don't see as an opportunity, and I really like to work with them and showing them the possibilities of the IP that we're developing together. And once we have that methodology, we move on to the roadmap of the course, and then it's just a matter of all the details the breakdown into the modules, the lessons, the core content for each lesson and all the educational resources that have to be developed to support what we're creating. And then the last part is how are we going to give them a way to self-assess their own progress? When we're creating online courses, I tend to suggest self-assessment, but when we are creating certification programs, then we do have to develop the assessment tools, the rubrics and everything else that is needed.
Speaker 2:And how much do you generally get involved with helping people to create tools or resources that do go along with that? You mentioned that there. Right, you said, within all the details there's the modules, the lessons, the core content and the resources to support it. Do you work with somebody to say, right, we're going to need a spreadsheet here that's going to calculate this thing for our clients who are I'm just going to make up an example here Somebody who is helping students to be able to rent out their properties on Airbnb? They need some kind of spreadsheet where they put in okay, I've got this much rent coming in. I think we're going to be busy this many days a month, we're going to have the rate be this high for this long and blah, blah, blah, all those kinds of things. Right, figure out, is this a good investment for buying a property? How much would you work with them on figuring out which of those resources are needed?
Speaker 1:As much as possible, because sometimes, actually, most of my clients are already very successful.
Speaker 1:This is not the first course that we're creating together.
Speaker 1:So they have a bunch of archived assets, so we pull them because normally they have something that we can either tweak, edit or use as a base to create a new one.
Speaker 1:The important part here is that they have to be the creators of it, otherwise they cannot register it or license it afterwards. So in that case, the one that you mentioned my expertise is not in spreadsheets, right, but it is in making sure that the spreadsheet is aligned with what we're teaching in the course, and it is aligned in every single detail. So, for example, the words that you're using in the spreadsheet, we need to make sure that we're mentioning them and defining them within the course itself, because a lot of times we're using resources that were already there and available, but they don't use the same lexicon, and that's going to create friction, right. So that's my job, too, to make sure and those are the little details that, as the creator, you just don't notice, but I do. So I'm there with them saying, ok, yes, but we have to name them, like we did in the course, and then what they do at the end is that they just pass everything that we created together onto the team Copywriters, graphic designers, vas, the whole team.
Speaker 2:Perfect, yeah. So otherwise, I'm thinking about that in particular recently because we've got a done with the program. So there's a course as a part of it where we're helping our audience of course, creators to be able to implement our techniques themselves. So we've got some clients. We do it all for them. We've got some clients where we show them how to do it themselves. And I'm like, how could we do a better job of making it easier for them to do it themselves? So we could teach people how to do it themselves.
Speaker 2:And some people implement everything and they're wildly successful. And some people don't implement everything and I'm like, oh, that's killing me. It's like come on, guys, what do we need to do? And I was like, what if, instead of trying to motivate them more, we figured out how to make it easier, like could we make more templates or could we use AI more or something else like that? So we're working on that. At the moment, internally, our copywriter uses ChatGPT all the time in her copywriting work, so she's using it like her assistant, but we've never taught our clients how to do that yet. So I want to extract that from her Be like right, let's see if we can make a system that you can feed into ChatGPT. That gets you the first draft of the emails written and then that kind of removes a whole load of work from the clients' point of view. So I just kind of put this on my mind of like the resources side of things. Talk to me a bit about those self-assessment tools. What's the purpose of those?
Speaker 1:Well, again, as learners, but specifically auto learners, when we come across a new learning journey courses, programs, coaching programs, you name it we come with our own baggage. We come with past knowledge, past acquired information, expectations and personal interests, and those are going to greatly impact how we perform inside the course. And one of the things that is going to improve that performance, even with our own baggage, is having a clear understanding of where am I supposed to get at the end, why, how is that going to help my specific scenario and the ability to track the steps all the way to that point. And that could simply look like a very well-defined roadmap, for example, with clear milestones, clear examples Examples are very important here.
Speaker 1:Or that could be checklists, that could be interviews, that could be direct feedback, it could also be assets reviews, critiques. It depends on what you're creating, the level of your participants and the amount of resources that you have as course creator. But it is important that you give them that because you want them to develop independence, and the only way to develop independence is if they can track their own progress.
Speaker 2:So, if I understand right, what you're doing is saying to people.
Speaker 2:the point of this course is to get you from A to Z, and you might be at point D and you're looking around and you're like I don't know if I'm on the right track here. So you have some way of helping them to figure out. Oh yeah, this is fine, I'm on the right track, or no, actually I've wandered off a little bit. I'm heading off somewhere else. So you have these milestones. So they're like oh yes, I've achieved X, y and Z already. That's great, I'm on track. This is good A checklist we'll then go through and go have I done ABCD and E? Great, cool, I'm on the right track. I've seen an interview with somebody else where I've read an example of this is what somebody else did and that's yet that sounds like me, or no? That doesn't sound anything like where I'm at, I suppose, as the expert one of the problems that you have is, it's obvious.
Speaker 2:Give course you're on the right track, but as the person going through it, you've never done this thing before.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Intimidating. You have no idea if you're on the right track.
Speaker 1:And you know what happens. Go on, sorry to interrupt you. You know what happens.
Speaker 1:As an expert, maybe you are able to know exactly the milestones and when they are supposed to hit the milestones, and then you also know the challenges that come within each milestone.
Speaker 1:But I don't know why people overlook this and they don't communicate these challenges. And I don't know if it's because they believe that maybe that's going to detract them, detract the participants, of moving forward. But that's not the case at all. With each milestone that they achieve, a new challenge is going to emerge and as a course creator, it's your job to manage the expectations. And again, as auto learners, we want to know what's going to happen so we can manage those factors that are going to influence our learning. So it works. It's something that is going to benefit on both ends. But as the expert, you kind of know. If you're conducting interviews, for example, and they tell you you know what I understand that I'm at this specific point and milestone D, for example, but I wasn't expecting this to happen, and then what happens is the creator, the expert is like that's normal, don't worry, you could have told me that.
Speaker 1:I just spent a whole week trying to YouTube my way out of it. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:There's this fascinating documentary that I watched a number of years ago and, trust me on this is connected. It's about the London Underground and one of the episodes they had interviews with the people who designed the signs in the London Underground and they said the crucial thing with the signs is what a lot of people think you need to do. The way the signs are done in a lot of places is at the point where you would turn left, there is a sign pointing to turn left to catch the Metropolitan Line. That will help you. But what's actually really important is to have it at every point of decision. So, for example, if you're at the top of an escalator and you're going the right way, but you don't know you're going the right way, then you don't get. You're not sure about getting on the escalator. You were pointed earlier to come to the escalator. It's the right direction to go, there's no other way. But if you get there and you're like am I going the right way?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:So there needs to be a sign at the top of the escalator saying Metropolitan Line this way as well, and then, when you get to the bottom, another sign saying yes, you're still going the right way, and then another one actually saying when to turn left. And when I heard that I was like, oh, that's obviously true and I never would have considered it. And I was recently in New York and I was catching the subway there and they don't have that. They do not have that guy doing that job. So you're like wandering around going. Well, how am I I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1:And it's a scary feeling right Because it's a new environment. You don't know what's around you. You don't know your way out of it. Maybe you're confident enough that you know I can figure it out, but why put them under that stress? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we want lots of signs for people, telling them that they're on the right track or that they're on the wrong track and get them back Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Especially right now. I mean, consider everything that has happened for the last three years. As adults, as learners, as participants in courses, we don't have time to be figuring out things. If you can, just let me know this is the right thing to do or this is a mistake that is meant to happen, because sometimes that is also part of the journey. But just give them, as course creator, give them that certainty, because also unlearning something takes time. So if they already went off track and they learned something that was not what you were teaching, you're going to have to allocate time to help them unlearn that and return to the track of the course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's really interesting. We've found one area in particular that we obviously need to do this better at, which is we teach people to send email promotions, and when they send the email promotions using the approach that we teach them, they work brilliantly. Their audience loves getting them and they make lots of money from it More money than as often, more money than they thought they ever could. But they're all nervous in advance because everybody thinks when I send this email promotion, everybody's going to be upset about getting all these emails from me. There's too many emails, I'm going to be spamming everybody.
Speaker 2:Everyone's going to be complaining to me, everybody has that same experience, and so part of our job is to help people get through that process and be like it's going to be OK. Here's four other people who you could talk to who've been through this before and what their experience was, but I think we could do a much better job of telling them in advance. You're going to feel this emotion and before you feel it, here's the video of these other four people who've done that and you're going to feel it anyway, but that's normal. When you feel it, come talk to us and we'll go through that and I think that might help people to stay a little calmer. Yes, you know.
Speaker 1:And this is why also, a lot of entrepreneurs, they have business mentors and they have coaches because that's sort of the approach of the coach. Like, I'm here to tell you this is meant to happen. We're going to work through this, but this is meant to happen, right, so we can have to take on that hat. With our participants inside our courses.
Speaker 2:We've got a series of steps to kind of work through. I'm just going to recap it there. So, first of all, we're going to start out with two main questions. If I'm creating this product, how can I best support the person at the other end, who's experiencing the most friction, whether that's community content, how they interact with us, whatever it is. And then, secondly, if you can't hire someone, then think through we're presenting to them, who were presented with X scenario, the most problematic scenario you can think of. The person will be able to make use of X, whatever it is you're doing, and they'll be able to make use of it by following these steps, and the steps are your roadmap.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we've got those two main questions. We've got the big vision, the philosophy, the methodology, the roadmap, and then we're getting down into all the details, the modules, lessons, the core content, resources to support it, all of this kind of thing. And then self-assessment or assessment tools, so how people know they're on track milestones, examples, checklists, interviews, asset reviews, critiques, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so we've got that whole plan. We're planning on working through that. How long does it take to do that process? Like, maybe if somebody's working with, maybe let's start if someone's working with you because you might have you kind of got more concrete data. But does it tend to be? This is a week's process, this is six month process. Like what kind of range are people looking at?
Speaker 1:Normally, for course, creation it takes around six weeks. We meet weekly. Some people come on our first call and they're like I need to get this out of my head right now. So can we have like an intensive or something? A lot of my clients have ADHD or a very busy schedule, but the reality is an experience has taught me that weekly meetings work best Because then we create and then they have time to simmering all the ideas, sit with them, go through their archives make plans, et cetera, and then we meet again.
Speaker 1:So course creation is around six weeks, sometimes seven, but it's mostly six weeks and certification programs, which is a little bit more extended process because we have to create the assessments and the rubrics and all of those extra little details. That's 12 weeks. But in reality, what happens a lot of times and again this is because I work mostly with people who is not their best, it's not their first course, so they have already a team waiting for them. So we have that first session where we lay out okay, so this is the big vision, this is the philosophy of the program, this is the methodology that we're going through and this is the roadmap. And then, as we are having meetings, they are passing on that information to their team. So in reality, we spend and six weeks together, but they are ready with their course, like ready to be launched within the same quarter, which is great, I think.
Speaker 2:And how could somebody go about if someone's like heard this and they're like man, I need to just work with Mariana. This is, I'm not gonna go do this all myself, I just need to get work with her. How does that work? Like, is there a fixed price per project? Does it vary depending on who you're working with? Like, what's the way of figuring that out?
Speaker 1:Yes. So for course creation for both of them, for both scenarios, whether it's a course or it's a certification program, it's a fixed price, it's a project, and sometimes people are like, yeah, that means six calls. I don't know if that price makes sense. Well, it does, because it's not the six calls, it's the six weeks that we're together, constantly in communication with each other. It's me looking into everything that you have created that is related to this course topic, and then we stop. When the curriculum is ready, they go, they launch, they have the first people through and then we get together again. So that's the last part, to assess what can be optimized. So that's why I work with fixed prices for both scenarios and it doesn't matter if okay. So instead of six weeks, we needed seven. That's within the same scope of the package.
Speaker 2:Cool, and how much is it? People want to work with you.
Speaker 1:For course creation is $5,000 and for certification program is $10,000.
Speaker 2:Got it perfect.
Speaker 1:That's American dollars.
Speaker 2:I kind of always assume it is yeah, just going like oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I have clients everywhere, so I do have to say Beautiful, okay, cool.
Speaker 2:And if someone wants to learn more about either your services or if they want to go read I don't know if you've got like a blog or podcast or anything like that, but if you want to go and learn more, where should they go?
Speaker 1:So they can always visit my website. I understand that working with me is an investment. It's worth it, but it is an investment. So on my website they can learn more about the philosophy behind my course creation process. And if they want to interact with me or just like be in each other's network, I'm active on LinkedIn so they can also just reach out there and we can have a chat if they want.
Speaker 2:Great. So the website is mypremiumcoursecom. Mypremiumcoursecom. We'll put that in the show notes as well. Marianna, thanks so much for coming on today. This was super helpful. I think it gives a really good overview of what the kind of processes. If someone's not ready to work with you, they've got kind of a framework to work within, and if they are, then hopefully people will get in touch as well. If you found the interview useful and you want to get future episodes, obviously subscribe wherever you listened. Thanks so much for listening. We appreciate your time and hope this has been helpful. If you've got any feedback for us, then let us know. You can do that in a five-star review, like I mentioned in the beginning, or just drop me an email. Johnjohn at datadrivenmarketingco. Thanks very much and, marianna, thanks again. Thank you.