The Art of Selling Online Courses

The One Email Sequence Every Course Creator Needs - With Eman Ismail

• John Ainsworth • Season 1 • Episode 153

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In this episode, Monica is joined by email marketing expert Eman Ismail to uncover the essential email sequence every course creator needs - the welcome email sequence. If you've been wondering how to turn subscribers into engaged students through email, this conversation is for you.

Eman shares her proven framework for welcome sequences that build genuine connections and drive consistent sales. You'll learn practical strategies about email timing, segmentation, and how to craft messages that resonate with your audience.

We dive into real examples of what works in email marketing for course creators, including:

- How to structure your welcome sequence
- When to automate your sales emails
- Smart ways to segment your list
- Tips for writing emails that get read and drive action

Whether you're just starting with email marketing or looking to improve your current strategy, you'll walk away with clear, actionable steps to strengthen your course business.

#EmailMarketing #CourseCreator #WelcomeSequence #emailstrategy 

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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Art of Selling Online Courses. We are here to share winning strategies and secret hacks from top performers in the online course industry. My name is Monica Abadiu. I am the In-House Chief Copywriter at Data-Driven Marketing, and today's guest is Iman Ismail. She is the person to call when you want to make more money from your emails. As the founder and head email strategist and copywriter at ImanCopyCodecom, iman and her team help businesses fire up their conversions, evergreen their sales and turn fans into superfans, and today we are going to talk about the essential types of sales emails every course creator should be sending.

Speaker 1:

But before we jump into today's episode, I have something exciting to share with you. If you want to grow your email list quickly, you need to check out our Double your Email List guide. Having a bigger email list makes everything else in your business easier. It means that every time you do a promotion, you make more sales, make more revenue and help more people, and with this guide, you'll get a step-by-step process to everything you need to do to grow your email list. So if you follow it, you'll very quickly experience a boost in your lead magnet conversion rates and see more people joining your email list. We typically see an increase in new subscribers each month of between 2 to 10x. So grab your copy of the Double your Email List Guide now at datadrivenmarketingcodouble and watch your email list transform. Okay, let's get into today's episode. Iman, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2:

Hi, monica, thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

So I'm so curious and I've started to kind of dig into the history, the background of the copywriters I talked to at the show and I was reading up on your website that you grew up wanting to be Beyonce 2.0 and spent most of your teen years on stage. How did that lead to email copywriting?

Speaker 2:

It's so funny. Yeah, I spent the majority of my childhood and adolescence, up until like the age of 20, probably, on stage uh, singing mostly, and then close after that, acting. I did a lot of acting in a lot of plays, on a lot of stages and a lot of theatres, and it was my absolute passion, as in. I think if anyone thought of me ever, it would always be in the performing arts kind of way, and I actually see so many similarities between what I used to do on stage and what I do now, because I think what I do now in writing, writing and strategizing and also writing emails for clients, for business owners I get to step into their shoes, I get to play a role as a ghostwriter who is them, you know, as I'm writing these emails and I get to tell their stories as if I am them. I get get to, I get to play a role and be them, you know, and it's about like understanding these business owners, understanding my clients, figuring out how they tick, how they work. We know what's important to them, um, who they are as a character and as a person, and so much of that is what I used to do with these characters that I was playing and portraying. Um, so much of that like getting the acting right is understanding, you know the character that you have to become, and so I see a lot of similarities between that. And then also, because I enjoy performing art so much and that kind of performance aspect, I make sure that I have that in my business as well.

Speaker 2:

So social media gives me that outlet in terms of just being able to create my own stage on social media.

Speaker 2:

And then of course, I do a lot of speaking virtual speaking and in-person speaking at conferences and most recently, international conferences, which has been brilliant.

Speaker 2:

So I get to, you know, still, um, just do that love of mine, which is being on stage and talking to people and capturing an audience's attention, you know, and of course, I have my podcast, a multi-world podcast, and actually that started off as a radio show. I used to do radio back in school when I was just a school girl and I it's so funny because I forgot about this until I had like a flashback and I don't know how I forgot because I did this for four or five years me and my friends used to have our lunchtime show once a week and you know, we learned, we were taught how to do all the like, you know, the DJ stuff. So we actually used to do the whole thing ourselves and I think that, like, that passion, that love for presenting, found its way to um, you know, help me become a podcaster. So, yeah, I think it's actually there are really close links between all that stuff and all the stuff that I do now that's so fun.

Speaker 1:

Do you like crime stories? Or I do puzzles okay.

Speaker 2:

I do. But you know I'm trying to like not love them as much because I've I've noticed that it does a number on my nervous system, like the older I get, and so I realize that it actually really stresses me out as much as I'm addicted to them and love, love them. I just listened to um scamanda, the podcast, I don't know if you okay, really good, check it out if you haven't listened to already. Um, but yeah, true crime super interesting. But I was like, oh my god, this really actually stresses me out, like maybe I shouldn't, maybe I need to take a break from all this true crime.

Speaker 1:

I'm asking because the majority of the copywriters I've been talking to they're either into crime stories, into mysteries, into jigsaw puzzles, like all of those things Interesting. Yeah, I mean that's what we do, like we play detectives to find like really good insights. But then there's you who's like well, I get to play the part of the person who I'm writing for, and that's so exciting because that's also part of the job we do. But the way I see it is like I don't put myself necessarily in the shoes of the course creators I write for it's. I'm putting myself in the shoes of the audience I'm writing for.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's another aspect of it, that's another part of it, like understanding them as well and understanding their voice as well, um, and it's a fine balance between the two.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, absolutely, I'm with you so how did you transition into email marketing? What was the know crucial moment that made you think oh my God, this is it, this is what I was born to do.

Speaker 2:

You know, I used to do a lot of in-person workshops and at the end of every workshop I'd put a little jar at the front of the workshop and I'd tell anyone who wanted to be on my email list, who wanted to stay in touch with me, to write their email on a piece of paper and then drop it into the into the jar, right. So what happened is I ended up collecting all these email addresses of people that I actually knew and had met in real life. So my email list was very localized and full of people that knew me personally because we'd met at these workshops and so I would see these people around a lot and they would get my emails. And then every time we met someone, someone new would say to me oh my gosh, I love your emails. They're so interesting, they're so funny, they're so engaging. I just I love your emails.

Speaker 2:

And then it got to the point where I realized just how much I love writing them, and I was doing emails for clients already. But I remember just thinking like, well, what if that's all I did? Because that's the part that I enjoyed most and I thought, what if email was the only thing I did? Because people love getting my emails. I know I'm good at them, I love doing it, but, like, can I really make this work? Will it really work? And this was back in 2019 that I was having these thoughts, right, so back then there were not as many email copywriters as there are now. There were I could probably name like a handful, and it wasn't a big thing, it wasn't like it wasn't the dumb thing. It felt like a very big risk Versus today, when I think it's probably one of the most popular niches in terms for coffee writers. Now, right, um, I don't know if you agree with that.

Speaker 2:

But I think so. I think so because I think the reason that people choose it is because when you can get results for your clients, you can can get really great results, and then you get to show that off. And it's easy to show the ROI when you're able to get ROI for clients, but in the same breath you also then have to take responsibility for when it doesn't work, and it's very difficult, it's very difficult. There's, you know, there's the good and the bad side to being so close to the results.

Speaker 1:

I mean there's a lot that goes into email marketing that a lot of people don't really see. I mean, I've been in projects that appear to be amazing, like all the elements of what could be a six-figure campaign, easily, and then, because I didn't really have access to everything like the entire story behind the offer, behind what the client was telling me, the issues that we were confronting when the sales email started to go out could have been solved if we would have known. So there's a lot that should happen before you actually send that sales email yes, and it's not all.

Speaker 2:

On the email marketer yeah, because there's so many different, there's so many different parts to it. Um, I recently had a client launch where the wrong basically the wrong audience was segmented and like taken out of the sequence and they were like the hottest, the hottest leads that we expected loads of sales from, and instead they didn't get any of the emails. And so and that wasn't my mistake, just to be clear, it wasn't my mistake, it was a, it was a tech error on my client's team and just something as simple as that. I can mess up your entire launch. That's it. It's. It's a lot.

Speaker 1:

There are a lot of moving parts do you want to talk a little bit more about those moving parts, because this is a perfect moment to transition into the educational part of this episode, because a lot of the people who are listening I know they keep hearing. Well, they hear two things One oh no, email marketing is dead. I'm not going in that one. But they also hear email marketing can make you a lot of money and can be a very powerful channel not just for sales but for also, like nurturing, engaging and moving your top of the funnel leads into bottom of the funnel and actually converting. So what are some elements that a lot of people don't really know about email marketing that they should know?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think the first thing is that a lot of people, when they're launching, just go straight to the launch and then hope for the best and think that if they do everything that they've been told to do or taught to do for the launch and they, you know, they tick every single box and they do it all really well that you know, the expectation is that the launch will be amazing, exceptional, make lots of money, but the truth is, the launch starts way before the actual launch. You need months and months and months of nurturing time. You need time where you're taking care of your audience, where you're proving to them that you are worth listening to, that you are credit, credible, that you have authority, that you know what you are credible, that you have authority, that you know what you're talking about, that they can and should trust you. All of that takes a long time to build, and so there's a lot of things that you have to do before you get into launching, and I think one of the most simple ways to do that is to have a welcome sequence, and this is something that a lot of business owners don't have, because I think it just seems so simple. They're like, ah, you know I'll get to it one day.

Speaker 2:

I don't think anyone disputes that a welcome sequence is at least helpful. But it's one of those things that people are just like, oh, I'll just get to it one day, or oh, I'll just put one email up for now so that people subscribe to my email list. They get the welcome email and that's enough. But it's not enough, and the welcome sequence is so much more than helpful. It's really, it's truly vital, because it sets the scene for everything that's coming next, and it also allows you to put your audience and your subscribers in a place where they're ready to, in some cases, buy from you almost immediately and, in other cases, at least be open to hearing from you and being excited to hear from you, because now they understand you and they know what you're about and they know what your business is about and they know how you can help them. And so the welcome sequence, in case you don't know, is a series of automated emails that goes out to subscribers immediately upon subscription. So the first email in your series of automated emails that goes out to subscribers immediately upon subscription. So the first email in your series of emails goes out immediately upon subscription. So usually you'd have a lead magnet or some kind of opt-in, where people have given you that email address because you promised them something in return, so that first email would just be the delivery of that opt-in or lead magnet whatever it is that you promised them.

Speaker 2:

And then after that is where the nurturing takes place. And it's not just nurturing, it's also education. You're teaching them and training them about who you are, what you do, why you're the best at what you do, why they should hire you specifically over other people or why they should buy your course specifically over other people's courses. And you're making sure that your subscribers are all on a level playing field so that by the time they start receiving your newsletter, your, your, like, your regular weekly emails we'll talk about that in a second Um because they're not receiving, or they shouldn't be receiving that your weekly emails while in the welcome sequence. They need to go through the welcome sequence first, finish the welcome sequence, then receive your weekly emails. You know from that point on that everyone who's receiving your weekly emails has gone through your welcome sequence. So they know exactly who you are, they know exactly what your offers are, they know exactly how you can help them. All your subscribers have the same level of education around who you are, you can offer them how you can help, why you're the best at what you do, and so from then on, you can then base all your, your campaigns after that, knowing that they have that baseline like knowledge, that foundational knowledge about you.

Speaker 2:

And this, the welcome sequence, really isn't about getting sales, although it's very possible to get sales, especially if you you're very intentional and specific about that, like. There are different ways to do it and there are some that are more kind of sales oriented, which is fine, but most of the time, you're not trying to get sales. In your welcome sequence, it's all about know, like and trust. You want your audience, your subscribers, to feel like they know you, you want them to like you and, by the end of it, you want them to trust you. And that's the basis on which you then go on to later launch, because you know that they know you and like you and trust you. And those are three things that you really really, really need if you want someone to buy your stuff.

Speaker 1:

I like that and I think a lot of people. When it comes to the welcome sequence, they just assume that if someone found their way on the website and on that lead magnet if it's not coming from an ad like a cold ad, then it's someone who knows their brand right. They're there because they want to be there. But I agree with you, the majority of the course creators we've been working with. They either have, like the one lead magnet, delivery email for a welcome sequence or they have maybe three emails, but they're not optimized in any way. So my next question would be if I have a welcome sequence that is underperforming, what's the lowest hanging fruit for me right now?

Speaker 2:

You mean in terms of just getting performance up.

Speaker 1:

I mean in terms of just like getting the opens right, because the first email is going to get like the highest open rate right and click-through rate, and then, as you move forward in the welcome sequence, open rates, click-through rates start to kind of go down a little bit, as obviously the emails start to talk about something else, not just like here's this free thing you wanted, click here to get it yes, you're totally right, but also, um, okay, so you're totally right about about the, the stats, the open rates, click rates decreasing kind of as you go further down the welcome sequence.

Speaker 2:

So you know the emails at the end will have a lower engagement rate than the emails at the beginning, but, um, they can still be really high, just just to be clear.

Speaker 2:

So I'm having a look at my um welcome sequence and I have different welcome sequences segmented on based on different audiences, so they're very specific to who is who has just signed up. Uh, so my first email, for example, it has an 87.8 open rate and, to be fair, like that can and should be higher. I have higher expectations of myself and so I could get that higher, I think. Um, and then that has a 55.8 click rate. Next email 71.4 open rate. Um, the next one is 66.9, then it goes back up to 72.6 because I know that email is a really powerful email. I know the subject line and, just like you know when a subject line is just like bang on for your audience, so that one like has made it spike again, people are opening that one again. The next one goes down to 66 and then the next one goes down to 59.9. So almost 60%. So in one, two, three, four, two, three, four, five, six by the sixth email, the lowest open rate that I have is 60, and it's just, it's so possible. So, yes, 100 the engagement goes down, but it's still going to be like just 100 times better than your open rates, your engagement, your click rates in any other generally email sequence. And that's because, by the way, when people first join your email list, that's when they're most excited about you, that's when they're most curious about you, that's when they're most interested in you, and so you really have to capitalize on that interest. Um, and so, in terms of someone who has a welcome sequence that isn't performing too well and you want to get it, you know you want to get it back up I want you to start thinking about, like, your most popular pieces of content. What are your most popular pieces of content that already exist that you already know that people love, that people engage with?

Speaker 2:

I'll give you an example. I have a video teardown that I did where I analyzed the emails of Kylie Cosmetics, the company Kylie Jenner's company. This went down so well on Instagram specifically, that I then turned it into a blog post and the blog post did brilliantly as well. Well, so then I then decided to add it to my welcome sequence, and I still I mean, I added this a couple of years ago, maybe three years ago now, to my welcome sequence. It's been there ever since and, again, this is a piece of content that already existed. I repurposed it. I didn't have to do very much to put it into my email sequence. Um, people still email me to this day and respond to that email in the welcome sequence and tell me how much they enjoyed it.

Speaker 2:

And so have a look at the pieces of content that already exist for you that feel like it would be easy to repurpose into an email so that you can give people a taste of, like, the best parts of you and your business.

Speaker 2:

So they're getting the absolute best, the absolute highlights, in those three to five emails. Um, and it's also great because, again, you don't have to come up with this from scratch, and so you're repurposing even things. Like you know, in your welcome sequence. You should have an email that is introducing you to your audience, and that isn't something you have to do from scratch either, like go to your about page on your website and think, okay, can I? Can I turn any part of this into an email, or which parts of this can I use and in my intro email, because you don't have to start from scratch. I think that's what feels really scary to people. So, if we're talking about low-hanging fruit, it's all about repurposing content and directing people to your best content so that they can see the very best of you and can really go away from the welcome sequence feeling like you're credible, you're trustworthy, you know what you're talking about. I like this person.

Speaker 1:

I like that Very practical. You mentioned different welcome sequences for different segments of your audience. I mean a lot of people. They segment based on, let's say, engaged, non-engaged, so that happens later on they segment by your non-buyer, but that also implies that there's some kind of action before they join the email list or they join the email list and they get the buyer tag. So what other segments are you using and how are you using and how are you able to create those segments so early in the buyer journey?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I like this question because I'm really proud of this. So first thing I want to say is, yes, I also do segment based on activity and inactivity and I used to do that immediately upon them coming into the into the welcome sequence. So if they didn't open the first email, I would send them another email and that email would get like a 90% open rate, like even higher than my first email, and it was really powerful because it would re-engage people. Sometimes people just need a little bit of a push to, you know, open that email. You just need to try it kind of a different way. So I did that. It was very successful and super interesting to watch.

Speaker 2:

But my favorite way for my audience of segmenting is based on what they do. So I have two very distinct audiences. I have business owners who want to hire me to do their emails and then I have copywriters who are in my world because they want to watch what I do as a copywriter, as a business owner, they want to see how I'm building my business and then eventually they usually want to learn from me as well. So they're interested in buying my courses, my digital products, my master, my master classes, that kind of thing. So these two audiences want very different things, so I have to segment between them because sometimes, like I couldn't send them the same emails because they just want different things from me. Um, and so the way that I do this so easily is I use ConvertKit and I have to give you a disclaimer, because my contract says that I do. I'm a ConvertKit partner officially, so I work with ConvertKit and so they pay me to do loads of amazing promotional stuff. But that's because I genuinely love this tool and loved it for years. And then they eventually came to me and was like partner with me and I was like, yes, it's perfect. So I am a ConvertKit partner, but I'm saying this because it's genuinely a brilliant tool.

Speaker 2:

So when people sign up on my landing page, like my opt-in page, and they put in their first name, they put in their email address. I have another box that is a custom field that asks them to tell me who they are, like, what they do, so they can tell me if they're a copywriter. If they're a copywriter, they pick I'm a copywriter. If they're a course creator, they'll click I'm a course creator. If they're a product business owner, they'll click I'm a product business owner. And if they can't identify, like with any of those labels I give, there's a final one that just says I'm an online business owner.

Speaker 2:

And then the inside of my convert kit, immediately when they press submit, tags them with the appropriate tag so that from the moment people enter my list, they are segmented based on what they do, slash, who they are, how they identify. So that means that I now don't need to do the hard work of you know the, the difficult segmentation strategy of once they're inside your email list, like it's. It's hard to try and segment an audience that's already in your email list with no like identifying factors, because not everyone's going to help you when you're, when you're trying to segment them. You have to watch their behavior and try and figure out and it's not 100 accurate either so often you'll get it wrong because all you can do is base the your segmentation strategy on kind of what you're picking up on in terms of their behavior and their interests and their clicks and that kind of thing. And so this has been really effective.

Speaker 2:

There is, you know there's a bunch of people who are not segmented on my email list because they entered my. They were on my email list. Pre-convert kit, pre-me using convert kit. But for the past two years, I want to say from the moment people enter my list, I segmented, which has just been so brilliant.

Speaker 1:

What's your opinion? Just have, like, a general sign up for my newsletter here or go always go for a lead magnet in terms of segmenting, pre-qualifying your audience, creating expectations for what's going to happen, because a lot of people, they're just going to say I don't want to create anything, I just want people to just sign up for my newsletter, because a lot of people, they either have my lead magnet but they're not getting something else or I don't know, I just want it to be frictionless, right? I just want something that is so general that it would be a match for everyone on my website.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So my first thought when you said was I just want people to sign up to my newsletter without me having to create anything, my initial thought was that we all want things. We all want a lot of things. Okay, and actually, to be fair, I do know that there are people who have and are experimenting with just the no lead magnet route, so it's possible. You don't always have to create something.

Speaker 2:

Um, however, people then need a really valid reason to want to join your email list, and I would say that it has to be a really strong reason. So for, for example, there's Tarzan Kay, who's an email copywriter or an email marketer, and she has a signup page on her website. That is just like join my email list just because, just because you've heard that my emails are really great and so people will sign up for emails, simply because they've heard so many great kind of word of mouth, testimonials, reviews from other people saying that her emails are really good, you should sign up. But that takes years of sending really great emails and being really trusted, and so you have to be like I just can't tell you how good you have to be in order to for people to sign up to email. It's just for no reason, just for no reason at all I think it was a very popular tactic.

Speaker 1:

I think last year you would go to these websites I know, I think, stem rush or social media marketing, or maybe even digital marketer, and they would say um, join our email journal, join our newsletter, um 50 000 marketers, just like you are getting our emails every week be one of them but even that's like, even that's giving them something like that is giving them the opportunity to belong to a community, to belong to a big community, and it's also giving them the opportunity to not miss out.

Speaker 2:

It's the FOMO and also the wanting to be part of a community and the social proof behind having 55,000 people on your email list, because that in itself tells a person, well, there's something good about this email list, there's a reason to join, right so that, and it's that's powerful and that's going to be highly effective. But what about the people that have like 2 000, 1 500 people on the email list?

Speaker 1:

I mean, yeah, it's not a big, a big number depending on your industry, but I think it's a very, not frictionless. But it asks for a smaller commitment rather than hey, get my list of 10 tips, you need to do 10 tips. You need to grow your email list in 30 days, right? So you would probably get people who are even, um, even earlier in their journey towards achieving the outcome they're after. So they kind of join your, they kind of found you, they are on your website, but they're still early in the game.

Speaker 1:

So, like your nurturing game with that kind of a lead, I think that takes even more, like weeks before they would normally see an offer. I'm imagining, just because I'm thinking about it like that, someone who wants a lead magnet. They know what they want, they know the problem, they are very close to even saying yes to something else, like an offer, right, someone who's liking for a generic thing or a general aspect of it. It's like I'm still looking, haven't decided yet, but let's see what you have yeah, and I think you had something really important.

Speaker 2:

Is you mentioned like that pressure of feeling like you need to create something, that is like 10 ways to do this or 15 ways to do that? And I talk a lot about the importance of providing value? Yes, through your emails and maybe through your opt-in your lead magnet too but value doesn't always have to mean education. It doesn't always have to mean that you're educating your audience. There are so many other different ways to provide value. So in your emails, for example, I truly believe and I have seen through the work that I do and the work that my clients, that I've done for my clients, and also just the work that I see other people putting out into the world value is so much more than just being educated and having like 10 tips thrown at you all the time, because it can get really overwhelming as someone who's consuming that all the time.

Speaker 2:

Value can also be you making your subscribers laugh, you making them reflect on something or like rethink something. Sometimes it's making them cry, like I've had that before. People respond to me and say this email made me cry. I had no intention of making them cry, I didn't mean to, but you know there are so many different ways that your work, what you provide, can be valuable to your subscribers, doesn't have to be that like 10 tips, 10 ways. This is how to do this and this is how to do that.

Speaker 1:

I like that. How do you think that applies to other sales emails? Or to yeah, to sales emails actually? Because the welcome sequence and what I've seen with a lot of course creators when they do have a welcome sequence, that is more than just one email, it does have a sales pitch. It does have a sales pitch. Usually it's towards the end. That's why I actually asked so what's your take on? You know, open rates and engagement going down as you move towards the end of the welcome sequence, because that's where the offer leaves, right. And then you also mentioned that you need a lot more time to nurture those leads before you pitch something to them. So what else is happening in that email journey After someone joins your email list? They have gone through your welcome sequence. Maybe they have seen an offer at that point. They haven't purchased. What else is happening until they actually see a sales email?

Speaker 2:

And what is that sales email? So, for me, how I approach email is I and this is going to sound like a lot to a lot of people um, because I know people struggle to send weekly emails. I get that I'm having the time, I'm having a period at the moment where I'm struggling to just send my weekly email and that's like my absolute minimum right now. Yeah, but ordinarily throughout the year when I, when I'm not on summer holidays with my kids, I send three emails a week Monday, wednesday and Friday and I have never seen so many sales come through as when I. Well, first I increased it from sending one email a week to two emails a week and then from two emails a week to three emails a week, and it's because my audience are more engaged, because they are more familiar with me and my offers and what I have to offer, and because, if you imagine, when you're sending three emails a week instead of three or four emails a month, you're shortening that sales cycle so much that you're going to get more sales. So between the launches, I send again one to three emails, and two of those emails are value-based emails, so they're not like heavy sales emails. However, I turn every email into a sales email simply by just adding a super signature at the bottom of my email. So the value I'll tell you what a super signature is a minute, but the value of the email is usually to um. It can be to either teach them something or to make them think or reflect, or it's, um, sometimes a thought leadership like. And then at the bottom of the email I add a super signature which is um like an extended signature that invites them to join one of my offers or courses or invites them to work with me. But it gives them like two, three different ways to engage with me more or to buy from me. And so I'm turning a very valuable email that's not at all salesy into a soft sell.

Speaker 2:

And so my emails that I'm like sending out on a regular basis are making me sales simply because I'm inviting people to buy. So that's the Monday Wednesday email, and then on the Friday, that's my hardcore sales email. On the Friday I send a very strong sales pitch selling something. I choose a product and then I write a sales email for it, and then I'll usually get sales from that as well. And so for me, every email is a sales email. It's either just a soft pitch or the Friday hard, hard pitch, you know, um.

Speaker 2:

But I think it's important to note that you can do that in a way that doesn't feel overbearing, that doesn't feel like icky for you or for your subscribers. And I think, when you can like, switch how you feel about selling in between launches, if you're able to do that, if you have products that allow you to do that, if you think about it as you serving your audience and giving them the opportunity to work with you in some way, versus like I'm pushing this on them. No, you're not pushing it on them, you're inviting them and they have every right to say no. And they might well say no, but they can't say yes or no If you don't give them the opportunity to join. And again, it doesn't have to be in a really, you know, a harsh, pushy way. Though I send three emails a week, I'm selling in every email and in two of those it's a nice soft, gentle sell, and they still sell products for me.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I love that. I mean a lot of people, just as you said. They struggle with just like one email a week and the majority of the course creators I've seen they go all in when they have like a big launch and then there's Black Friday and maybe a flash sale and that's kind of it and it's exhausting. I can totally get that.

Speaker 1:

So when they come to us and I talk them through, we have like an 11 email campaign and three of them the first three of them each one kind of walks them through the awareness stage problem here's another problem you didn't know you had because of the problem you didn't solve and then a little bit of quick relief. And those are like three emails similar to what you're saying, like warm up, very valuable, coaching, breaking false beliefs, empowering. And then the first promo email is basically connecting the dots between. This is why you're seeing a sales email, because remember that problem we talked about two, three days ago. Well, if you want to solve it, here's what you can do. And then the next emails eight emails. Half of them are soft sells. Focus on selling the solution but not the product. It's like if you want to make more money from your email list. You need to learn how to sell with email and that's basically the solution to monetizing your email list right. But then there are different ways you can do that. So there's a lot of coaching and empowering and showing them how it can be done without pushing the product, and then only the last four emails in that sequence are more product-based. But it's also about tackling the objections or the fears they might have about the product or working with the course creator.

Speaker 1:

So it's a similar combination of value, problem awareness, soft sell and hard sell.

Speaker 1:

But we do it over 11 days and like once a month in like once a month and in the meanwhile, because of the emails being so value-based, the course creators most of them don't really send other emails. In the meantime, they kind of rely on the evergreen sequences they have to keep people nurtured. But I like how everyone has like a different take on using email marketing to convert their audiences. And even when we're talking about sending three emails per week or sending 11 emails in one month and the majority of them having some kind of pitch into them, the results are still there and they're positive, rather than you know hearing oh no, we got so many unsubscribes or oh no, we got so many spam, complaints or hate emails, so I really like that. It should be like it's inspirational, honestly, because there's so much you can do with email marketing that serves both you as a brand, your bottom line and your students, because it's your direct channel for coaching absolutely, and I also feel like you know.

Speaker 2:

We all do what we do because we truly believe in what we do and we create products and courses because we truly believe that they can help people, that they will make people's lives and businesses better. So why wouldn't we want to share that with them? Why wouldn't we want them to? Why wouldn't we want to give them the opportunity to make their life and business easier and better? And I know that it can feel very hard to sell because I think so much of it is wrapped up in like fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear of even like imposter syndrome and things like that. There are so many things involved in in selling and honestly, just putting yourself out there as a course creator and as a business owner. But at the end of the day, you believe in your product and you believe in how effective it is, and so give people the opportunity to experience how amazing it is. Let them decide the yes or the no. Let them make that decision. Don't make it for them by never selling to them and giving them the opportunity to join.

Speaker 1:

I love that, and on that beautiful note we can end this episode. Thank you so much, Iman. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you or work with you?

Speaker 2:

thank you so much for having me. This was so great, and can I just say I've not I've not been on a podcast interview where I've spoken to another email expert I think ever. So it's so fantastic to just speak to someone who just knows, you know, who just knows. It's been a really great conversation. So thank you. In terms of where you can find me, you can find me and my team at imancopycocom. That's where you can get all the information to hire us to work with us. We'd love to work with you. And you can find me on instagram at imancopyco that the handle. You can follow me there. Let's stay in touch. And then, finally, if you enjoy podcasts, I have a multi award winning podcast that's on the HubSpot podcast network called Mistakes. That Made Me. You can find that anywhere where you listen to podcasts and it's the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake. So if you like a podcast'm sure you do, if you listen to this head head over and find mine, I'd love to have you awesome iman.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. I actually tried not to bring out like the heavy guns talking about deliverability and call to action. Copy all of that for another time, yeah, another time part two thank yeah, another time, part two.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, iman. Before we wrap up, I wanted to remind you of how much your support means to us. We're here to make your podcast experience even better, and you can help us with just a quick favor. By taking a moment to rate and review our podcast, you're giving us priceless feedback that helps shape future episodes. So has this show helped you make money? Has it helped you grow your business or improve your courses? If it has, please share it in the reviews. Go to ratethispodcastcom online courses.