The Art of Selling Online Courses

Why High Opt-In Rates are KILLING Your Sales

• John Ainsworth

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🔗 Get the exact lead magnet formula we used to generate $12 million at https://datadrivenmarketing.co/double

In this episode of The Art of Selling Online Courses, I sat down with Boris Mez from Data Driven Marketing to uncover the real secrets behind high-converting lead magnets and opt-in pages.

We dive deep into why high opt-in rates might actually be KILLING your sales, how to go from 15% to 70% opt-in rates (and why that's not always the goal), and the backwards engineering approach that ensures your lead magnets actually convert to sales. Boris reveals the exact architecture of winning opt-in pages, including the "above the fold" section that they spend half their optimization time perfecting.

You'll discover the 5 magic words that boost conversions instantly, why quiz funnels are dominating the market, and how one simple YouTube strategy helped a client make an extra $5,000 in just one month. We also break down common lead magnet mistakes that attract junk leads instead of high-quality buyers, and how to align your entire funnel for maximum revenue.

Whether you're struggling with low conversion rates, building your first lead magnet, or want to optimize your existing funnels, this episode is packed with actionable strategies you can implement immediately.

Speaker 1:

He made in a month $5,000 extra just from having this. So yeah, I mean that makes so much difference. If you have the end goal in mind, you can backwards engineer the whole thing and make it successful. We increase it to 70%, so that's one of the highest opt-in rates 70%, basically, seven out of 10 people opt-in.

Speaker 2:

Now Boris is one of the account managers here at Data-Driven Marketing. He's got eight years experience in sales and marketing. He's scaled multiple, seven and eight figure coaching, consulting and course businesses. He specializes in creating high converting funnels, optimizing paid advertising campaigns, implementing effective email marketing strategies and he has driven some absolutely amazing results for our clients.

Speaker 1:

These five words are like the magic thing, like that's my goal to think. If you can't think of anything, one of the main mindsets you should have is really being able to differentiate leads from high-quality ones. Otherwise, you're just collecting general leads that, in a way, you don't really need them. It's just junk that you wouldn't in any way use.

Speaker 2:

Today, we're going to be talking about improving your opt-ins, how you can grow your email list, what tactics work, what ones aren't worth bothering with, what's the architecture of a winning opt-in page and why is a high opt-in rate potentially a false metric? Boris, welcome to the show. Hello and welcome to the art of selling online courses. We're here to share winning strategies and secret hacks from top performers in the online course industry. My name is John Ainsworth and today's guest is Boris Mez. Now, boris is one of the account managers here at Data Driven Marketing. He's got eight years experience in sales and marketing. He's scaled multiple, seven and eight figure coaching, consulting and course businesses. He specializes in creating high converting funnels, optimizing paid advertising campaigns, implementing effective email marketing strategies, and he has driven some absolutely amazing results for our clients. Today, we're going to be talking about improving your opt-ins, how you can grow your email list, what tactics work, what ones aren't worth bothering with, what's the architecture of a winning opt-in page and why is a high opt-in rate potentially a false metric? Boris, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1:

Hey, thank you for having me, john. I the great intro, appreciate having me here.

Speaker 2:

So talk to me. What's the mindset behind creating a lead magnet funnel? What kind of approach are you taking overall when you're doing this?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a good one. So, when it comes to lead magnets, that's one of the most common topics course creators and almost everyone in the industry is curious about. Everyone running an online business in any way wants to generate more leads, and that's one of these things like everyone asks. Whether it's an e-commerce, course business, coaching business, even a service business, like somebody selling roofing, fixing services or anything really it's all about leads. Now, when it comes to this, one of the main mindsets you should have is really being able to differentiate leads from high quality ones.

Speaker 1:

So, generally, it's like everyone out there on the internet that's just seeing the page, seeing the website, seeing a lead form in any way whether it's a Facebook ad lead form or a sales or opt-in page form, whatever it is it's really about the intent of these leads and why are they there and what's the next step after that. So it's really like why are they there? What's the next step after that? So it's really like why are they there, what's the next step and what's the final step of these? So having that mindset can really change the way you're approaching a lead magnet, because otherwise you're just collecting general leads that, in a way, you don't really need them. It's just junk that you wouldn't in any way use these emails that have no purpose, many of them being fake even especially if your lead magnet is not having a specific purpose for these people to to get it and exchange their contact details for whatever you're giving them for free all right.

Speaker 2:

so, if I understand you right, what you're saying is you've got to start with the end in mind, in terms of, like, what is it I'm actually looking for someone to buy, and then what kind of opt-ins would actually make sense for that kind of person? Is that right, that is?

Speaker 1:

exactly right. If you have the end goal in mind, you can backwards engineer the whole thing and make it successful. However, if you go from just want more leads and then optimize this step, and then I just want more sales and then optimize this step, or I just want more low ticket sales, I just optimize this step, then you wouldn't really get to the end goal. Let's say your end goal is to be setting a mid-range program. Let's say it's a course for $500. Then ultimately, you should be optimizing everything for this final step. Otherwise, you'd be like building a Like you're creating this ladder to the wrong place. You're optimizing one step at a time. However, the ladder is going just the wrong direction, that you don't really need it. So you're building it.

Speaker 2:

it it's getting you somewhere, but it's not where you'd like to be actually you got any examples of that, where you've seen someone build the wrong kind of lead magnet, the wrong kind of uh front end, and it doesn't get the right kind of leads?

Speaker 1:

quite frequently. Yeah, uh, you can see it, and a lot of people just optimizing for a very clickbaity uh, opt-ins where let say, you want to exchange something for free, like a free demo. However, demo itself is what gets people to just get something for free, just getting, let's say, a free test drive. But none of these people would actually buy something for $5,000, for an example. So it's, let's say, a very short page that provides very small free value, but then on the next page, you want them to book a call for a high ticket, coaching, for an example. Well, these people would probably not be interested. They won't have that intent. However, if you have a very long page with a lot of explanation of the value, yes, there will be less opt-ins. However, these people who opt-in would be having way higher intent to book a call.

Speaker 1:

An example for this could be let's say, you're providing an English learning course, and if the opt-in is about learning 10 phrases to get better at English, but then you're selling a course for advanced C1 English, well, there is a huge discrepancy between the first step and the next step. So it would create like an audience, a huge list of audience that don't really need the C1 course or they don't need advanced English. They really need 10 phrases to sound a bit better in the next one hour. Got it Okay cool.

Speaker 2:

So what is working? What is some lead magnets that you have seen, or what's an example of you know someone managing to line up the lead magnet with what it is they're eventually selling.

Speaker 1:

An example of this would be really just understanding. Well, first of all, you probably got to answer three questions what is the end goal, which we said. What is the next step? Which we also said, and probably one of the main ones that people don't really use is where is the traffic coming from? So, is this people who are watching your YouTube videos? Are these people who you're running like you're buying media from, like Facebook ads, youtube ads? You're paying for this traffic. Are these people who know about you? Have they watched anything of you? Or are these cult, like cult audience never heard of you? Maybe just have some search intent about the keyword? Or they have some interest on Facebook ads and they just you got them from there, but they don't know anything about you. That would make the lead magnet different. That would make a huge difference whether these people would be able to go to the next step, what they would be interested in and how they perceive the whole funnel experience. In a way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, an example would be really like a quiz funnel, so there's an opt-in on the front and then it goes through a quiz with different questions and the quiz redirects you to a final step. That's slightly different depending on your answer. So we have this example with one of our clients that has a very high opt-in rate that goes through a quiz and then the quiz separates everyone into a different bucket and, based on their answers, that creates not only like understands what their pain point is, but also create a buyer intent, which we integrated within the quiz. The final page that they see is very different and it's based on their needs and wants. And what niche is that in? That is very different and it's based on their needs and wants. And what niche is that in?

Speaker 2:

That's in learning English and improving our language skills, okay, cool. So what's the different kinds of things that they're seeing at the end of that? Is it based on what their level is, or something?

Speaker 1:

That is right, exactly Based on their level and based on what they're really feeling as a pain point. So if somebody is like a professional, they probably wouldn't be that interested. Like, if they're interested in improving their English for their job or for their business, probably they're not interested in social interactions as much. Maybe as a secondary thing, yes, but the lead of that will be really like business English, like business C1 English. However, let's say somebody is really interested in connecting with others. They just moved to a different country where they speak English and they want to resonate more with the people around them, they want to have more friends. Then probably more of a social angle on learning English would be a lot better for them. And that goes for any language or really for any kind of course or student you're selling.

Speaker 2:

Have you seen? Has that had? When you say that that one's doing well, have you seen that it's actually getting a higher opt-in rate? Or it's getting a higher opt-in rate or it's getting a higher purchase rate? How have you defined that that one's doing well?

Speaker 1:

The opt-in rate on this one was amazing. I mean, we increased it to 70%, so that's one of the highest opt-in rates 70%, basically, 7 out of 10 people opt-in. However, the real big win there was we increased the conversion rates and the conversion rates went way better because people were seeing something that was tailored for them and it made a difference when we were optimizing exactly for what we discussed initially optimizing for sales rather than optimizing for leads. Now, obviously, if you have in the middle a great email campaign, follow-up email campaign, you could be optimizing for more leads and then cover with great emails that transition the buyer and understanding their pain points and getting them to the point where they would like to purchase. However, you can even optimize before that by having a lead magnet that fits, the final goal being the sales page. So, yeah, we are. In this case that we're discussing, there was like both, the sales page being very optimized to whatever they had as a pain point. However, we also had a very strong lead magnet that were generating seven out of ten leads.

Speaker 2:

Uh, every single day. And when you say 70, where's that? Where's the traffic coming from for that one? That was a warm traffic coming from primarily from youtube subscribers and podcast listeners from different platforms and when you'd made that, like because you made some tweaks to that page right and got it up to 70%, what had it been like before? 10, 15%, oh wow. So what kind of changes do you make on the page? Was it a quiz before and it was still a quiz afterwards, or was that something different?

Speaker 1:

The middle step was a quiz in both cases. Prior to that, it wasn't optimized. One of the things about quizzes is that you can place the lead magnet on before the quiz or after the quiz, and this is something that would make a lot of difference in the lead generate that you're getting. One of the main things, though, that we changed on the page was, I'd say, is we heavily optimized the above the fold section, because this was the one thing that everyone was seeing. We simplified the form as much as possible just keeping first name and email address, made everything just pop up on the screen, just added a lot of CSS effects, just the page being in a way, created like a thumbnail of a YouTube video that grabs your attention, especially the above the fold section. The second and the third section that we had on that page is explaining the benefits or the outcomes of getting that lead magnet and what it's going to get you, and then the final section was just our call to action and a bit more details, but overall, it was really the above the fold section that made a difference.

Speaker 1:

We also placed a very high quality image of the person that's behind this brand. Everyone who was seeing that page knew that person and just seeing their face there on a very high quality image was instantly grabbing their attention and keeping them on the page for a couple of more seconds than getting getting to opting in. Plus, we added some small tactics, like just having an on-exit pop-up. That's something that almost nobody does, but when somebody tries to exit, basically you can have a pop-up that stops them, grabs their attention for one last time, and this would increase your opt-in rate easily by 5-10% just having that thing there.

Speaker 2:

Okay, cool. So talk us through that, some of the changes you made on that page. Talk us through what is the architecture of a really good opt-in page. If someone wants to put together they're like I have got either bad opt-in pages or I'm not pointing traffic from my YouTube channel through to an opt-in page, or anything like this. And, by the way, guys, if you have a YouTube channel and you're not pointing people to your lead magnets, please start doing that, for goodness sake.

Speaker 2:

This is not exactly what this episode's about, but it's like you should have this in place. So make sure that in every video, after like the first point and then again at the end of the video, towards the end of the video, you're mentioning that you've got this free opt-in, have it in the description above the fold in the description, so that people don't have to click that and then put it again in the pinned comment and link to now one of these opt-in pages that boris is going to describe what it should look like. So what's what should people have on that opt-in page? What's the starting point? I guess the starting point is having a lead magnet that fits with what you're going to sell later.

Speaker 1:

right, that's kind of the starting point oh yeah, it's really like your offer should be what these people want and what you can actually offer later on. So it's being congruent across the whole funnel. But just take it one step back to what you said. Funny story, if you remember one of our clients just last week or the week before that, josip, our funnel expert, said he placed these links in the YouTube description and he made in a month $5,000 extra just from having this. So yeah, I mean, that makes so much difference and I don't know why nobody's doing it. Everyone forgets, but it makes a huge, huge difference.

Speaker 1:

Just having these small links on top of your video where people are watching it, people are gonna see these are hot leads. People want to know more about you. Having this there and making it super easy makes a lot of difference. So, yeah, regarding the architecture of a winning lead magnet, I'd say you should go. You should create two lead magnets initially well, it's really one lead magnet and you separate it in two parts if you want to really optimize it One longer and one very short one and then just see which one works better. So the longer ones should be really above the fault section.

Speaker 2:

When you say two lead, you meant two opt-in pages. Yeah, two opt-in pages.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, cool, that's right. Yeah, the lead magnet is usually the same and the offer should be the same, and it should really be congruent with everything. However, the opt-in pages should be ideally you have two pages, just to see what works better for you and for your audience. One should be slightly longer. One should be very short, the longer.

Speaker 2:

One should have the following structure Above the fold section that consists of a couple of elements Could you just explain to everyone, just to be absolutely sure everybody understands what does above the fold mean yeah, that's common marketing term that we kind of assume everyone knows it, but it might not be as popular.

Speaker 1:

So the above the fold section is really the first thing you see on a page before you scroll down with your mouse, before you touch it, even just the first thing you see on the screen as the above the fold. The moment you scroll down with your mouse or you swipe it on your phone down, you see the second fold. Basically, you see the second section.

Speaker 2:

I suspect that it's called that. I don't know this for sure, but I suspect it's called that because it used to be. If you had a newspaper that was folded in half or something like that, it was the bit before you. Above the fold was the top. That's exactly the reason. Attention is that where it's from. Okay, that's exactly where it's from.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, cool it's gone all-time dark response marketing. So, yeah, the above the fold section is really the main thing. Whenever we do an opt-in page or whenever we do a sales page, whenever we do anything sales page related, like a funnel related page, we probably spent half of the time just optimizing this thing and then working half the time on everything else, because if you nailed that part, you're going to get lower bounce rate. So people just going on the site and sticking there and not just seeing it clicking away, you're going to get people read more and then, once you grab their attention, you can continue a story Like, just like a good story. Actually, when you have a good story, you just start with something that grabs their attention. Then you can have it for longer and you can expand on the details. But if your story is bad at the beginning, probably nobody's going to listen to it afterwards. So, the same thing the above the fold section is like the main thing of a good story what these people are going to get. We usually go with the following route we do outcome plus something that creates curiosity, outcome being what you're actually going to get, not a benefit but really an outcome and then some kind of a curiosity, we lately started using a lot of 2025 in our above the fold sections. Like, just make sure that when somebody sees it, they know it's the latest thing, it's not something from last year, from the year before. It's really a 2025 thing. It's simple, it's easy, it's actionable and it's unique and it's new. So these are main things that you're probably looking for to have in the above the fold section. So an eyebrow headline this is the top headline, like a small eyebrow on top of it the main headline and sometimes we do a subject line right below the main headline Not as necessary on an opt-in page, but you can have it there if you'd like to. Then we do an image of the person, ideally if it's a personal brand. That really helps just people recognizing somebody that they already know.

Speaker 1:

Having a first name email. Try to be as minimal as possible when it comes to the input fields. You can do a phone number. We found this on our own offer that we ran last year that it didn't make a lot of difference, like it didn't break the conversion rate or the opt-in rate, for that matter. However, try to be as minimal and then you can add more stuff if you'd like to, especially if you need phone number, like to call these people. But for course, creators, it's really first name, email and then a button, a call to action button. That should be optimized for some kind of a benefit or some something positive for them. So it's not like up to cart or I mean that's for purchase, but let's say yes, I want it. Or what I saw yesterday was like join my wait list. It's more like yes, I want to become better at xyz thing so the button?

Speaker 2:

does that fit on a button like how how many words can you have on the button? What's an example of a good opt-in? Oh, what was the? If you can share it, what's the opt-in uh text on that page you mentioned earlier.

Speaker 1:

That did really well uh, on the opt-in page, I can't really recall right now, but usually if you want to go to which one, like I always do, get instant, get free, instant access now. Like these four words are magic because get free, free, instant access, now Five words. These five words are like the magic thing. That's my go-to thing If you can't think of anything. They cover almost everything you need to say in a button Because it's free, it's instant and you're going to get it now and it's like get. So it calls really people to take action. But yeah, it could be like yes, I want this thing. So about five, six words, you can fit them in.

Speaker 2:

What we've got on one of ours on our site. You could tell me if this actually should be improved or this is good. It says yes, send me the free report now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, that's a good one, Because it says exactly what you're going to get. Yes, I want the free report now. Send it. Report now, send it to me. It also implies that you're gonna we're gonna send it to you, which makes people, compels people to put the real email address there, not just to get to the next page, see what's behind the wall. It's actually, if you want the report, put your right email so you can actually get it there because we're gonna send it to you. So this compels people to put a real email, make sure it's the right one. It's not like some fake dummy email to get to the next page. So, yeah, that's important too okay, cool.

Speaker 2:

So so far we've got eyebrow headline headline, maybe a sub headline, call to action button written in the first person saying yes, send me the thing, or yes, I want to get better at, or whatever it is, or what was the one you said is your default if you can't think of anything else get free instant access now get free instance access now and then a picture of the person because it's a personal brand. Okay, cool. What goes in the eyebrow headline? What's that?

Speaker 1:

that's a good one. A couple of things you can do there. You can call out the right audience that's that's one to go to for most marketers. Calling out your audience, attention, star players who who feel stuck, uh, in their, in their playing right now anything like calling out the right audience. It could be also. What I like doing usually is like implementing some numbers there. So, after testing 200 000 variations of this, this is what we found, for an example, after testing, testing thousands of funnels, this is what we found out, and then main headline being the outcome. So, uh, you can, I usually like to go with the numbers one. If I can think of anything. It could be like calling out the right audience, but it's really one of these two that we usually go for.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I always think of that as like calling out the audience, like what's the make sure that people know they're in the right place. This is the right thing for them, that we're talking to them. Okay, now we've actually got, if someone wants to see a, an example page, something like this If you go to datadrivenmarketingco slash double, then we've got a guide to how to improve your opt-in rate. That includes a lot of the stuff that we are talking through, actually what we're going through, some really specific details. This is like a broader covers the overall topics you need to know in order to improve your opt-in rate If you go to datadrivenmarketingco slash double, double.

Speaker 2:

And the other advantage of going there is you're going to see which of these things we've actually got in place on that page. So we don't have an eyebrow headline on that page, or actually, let's uh, let's do a quick share screen, boris, and I'll show you what we've got. You can tell me if this one counts as a eyebrow headline or a share. All right, cool. Does this bit count as an eyebrow headline?

Speaker 1:

I suppose it does yeah, okay, so that's the example I was saying. Actually, we used to generate 12 million dollars in 2023.

Speaker 2:

It's like it's numbers very precise that we've used, so it's exactly this so if anybody just listening we've got it says the lead magnet formula we used to generate 12 million dollars in 2023, for course, creators, you can apply it before the end of the day. So that's the eyebrow headline. What's the what's the idea of that versus the headline in this case?

Speaker 1:

yeah, in a way they go hand in hand together. You can read one or the other. You can read the main headline alone and it will still make sense. However, this one is implying that this one has authority and has been tested and it works. So it's like a replicable formula for success in this eyebrow and then in the main headline you can see a couple of things in less than 30 minutes. So time frame, specific. You know the exact process. So it's a process. It's exact. We've proven it. We used to two to five x any lead magnet conversion rate. So that's like exact, unique thing.

Speaker 1:

You're gonna get out of this. What is the outcome? You're gonna get without, so any limiting beliefs somebody might have, without driving more traffic or doing marketing gimmicks. So if you hate marketing gimmicks, if you don't have more traffic to come up with, you don't want to pay for ads, this is. It works even though, if you don't have more traffic, even though marketing gimmicks are being used. So it has four or five things in the whole main headline implemented as ideas that convey a different information.

Speaker 2:

And then, from the personal brand point of view, it's got a picture of me looking a little bit shocked and pointing over to the side of whatever it is you're going to be downloading that's also on purpose.

Speaker 1:

It's pointing towards the input fields.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny, it's. There's something about the human brain that tends, there's a certain kind of direction. You can. You can can naturally see where your eyes follow, and it tends to be. First of all, you look at faces and then you'll follow where either the eyes are looking or you follow what the person is pointing at and you just kind of naturally follow that around. And it's quite difficult for me to look at this without just looking at my face and then I go what am I pointing at? What's going on over there? Yeah, okay, cool. So we've got the eyebrow headline, we've got the headline. Talk me through the other elements we've got on this page and like so that people know what they need to do now. This is one of those short versions of a page rather than long one. This is just. There is nothing below the fold, at least on the desktop so there's one element that says bonus.

Speaker 1:

So that that was also on purpose just having. You can consider this as a subline where you just have it there as an additional thing, bonus to share with people. So it's there to keep the attention. And then having all these fields Now we have a lot of fields because we are trying to work with the right people, so we try to qualify them and we're not really going after high opt-in rate. Although we want high opt-in rate, it should be the high opt-in rate from the right people, because we will want to work with a very specific audience, very specific people that we can actually help and make sure they grow their business. So that's why we have more than the usual ones.

Speaker 1:

Many course creators, especially B2C people, could go with a single or two fields, more like two fields, like first name email address. Also on the image, we purposefully also put that tablet there which says double your email list and rocket your sales. That was on purpose. Having just the visual representation of the guide, in a way just making it more tangible to the people when they opt in. And then we jump on the button. I mean, just like I said, yes, send me the free report now and just in case we put one more small text below it, get free instant access Now. It's very small at the bottom, but it's still physical.

Speaker 2:

David Pérez there's five magic words.

Speaker 1:

Andres Wyljcica- Five magic words and we also put that disclaimer at the bottom, like we promise to only send you more amazing stuff. So it's really just making sure that people feel comfortable sharing their personal details for something, and making sure that people feel comfortable sharing their personal details for something and making sure that they would. Nothing would be shared with anyone else and everything would be safe and there would be no like their. That data won't be used in any way to harm them beautiful, okay, cool.

Speaker 2:

So if you want to see that example, go to data-drivenmarketingco. Slash double and we'll put that link in the show notes, the description and the pinned comment as well. Wherever you're listening to this, you'll be able to access that just by clicking the link. Okay, so we've talked about the above the fold there. Is that the same in terms of what you would have above the fold on mobile, or are there certain things that, because a mobile screen is smaller, you're going to have to sacrifice being above the fold and they get pushed down?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a slightly unsacrificed with mobile and probably whenever you're doing a page, you should be using things like Google Analytics or Microsoft Clarity just to see where your data is coming from, what people are using. If you see people primarily using smartphones and they probably are, but especially if it's like over 70% you should start with optimizing for mobile, just because, like, having the mobile in mind makes a huge difference and you'd like to make this mobile fit perfectly and then maybe add more stuff to the desktop, so on desktop you can say more stuff. However, if most of the people who come to your page would see everything on mobile, make sure you have a couple of things above the fold. Have the main outcome, even if you don't have the eyebrow. Have the main outcome at least there, which is the main headline in this case. Have the input fields.

Speaker 1:

We usually like to put the input fields before any image. So input field one, input field. Two, a button and then an image of any sort that fits there. If it fits, you can put the image above it. Also, make the image clickable and the image could be a pop-up, so make sure the image is clickable. People click on that image. It shows a pop-up still works. If you can make it like a button even, especially for some of our webinars, we make like a play button there where people click it shows a pop-up to opt in, that's also an option. But, yeah, make sure that the input fields are at least the input fields without the button are visible. Ideally everything the input fields plus the button are visible at the above the fold section and the main outcome is there, so people can in a way, remove any resistance from seeing this and moving to the next page.

Speaker 2:

Gotcha, okay, so we've talked about above the fold. Then what else is going to be on the screen, on the page? You mentioned it, but just take us through it again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so the two pages. Going back to that concept. We have the very short version, just above-the-fold section, but that page also has a second version that we decided not to use, which was having two more sections and they were what's inside the guide. So usually three to five bullet points, more like three. That's what we usually go to. In these three bullet points we explain what you're gonna learn inside the guide and then you can do a section about the person who created the guide.

Speaker 1:

In this case could be you, john, for our lead magnet guide, it could be someone else, for any kind of course.

Speaker 1:

It could be more information about the person, basically, and it could be a final call to action.

Speaker 1:

So it could be three to four sections, depending on what you feel like doing, and then have the above the fold section alone as a separate page and have one longer version with the same above the fold and a couple of more sections.

Speaker 1:

And just test the two. See which one has a higher opt-in rate, probably assume it's going to be a shorter one. Then see which one has the higher conversion rate, which I probably assume is going to be a longer one, and then see which one has the higher conversion rate, which I probably assume is going to be a longer one, and then see which one gives you more revenue at the end of the day. Because if you have a great email campaign between the sales page and the opt-in page before that, you could probably be covering a lot of these leads that didn't purchase first time. You can get them to purchase in the next seven days, for an example, so you could be making actually more money with a shorter one. But you need to see the numbers. You need to be tracking every single metric there and have separate funnels, ideally just to see what and how things work.

Speaker 2:

Let's say someone's listening and they're like I love the idea, Boris, I would love to be tracking everything and looking at all the data, but I just don't have time or I can't be asked, or whatever it is right. And they're like just give me the one that's most likely to work. What would you say if you had to choose one of those options out of the opt-in pages that, overall, is going to make the person more money? Which one would you go with? The short one or the long one?

Speaker 1:

Long one for sure. I mean, if you don't have time to optimize your emails and everything, you probably just go with a longer one so you get instant conversions. Now we use the short one because we are our own marketing team and we optimize everything in detail and we know everything. So we use the shorter one because we can optimize the process later. But if you are seeing this and you're like I don't have time for emails, I don't have time to check open rates, click rates, conversion rates, everything every day, then probably just go with the longer one with a lot more information so you can have higher conversion rate right away. Okay, great.

Speaker 2:

Any other tips people should know about improving their opt-in page?

Speaker 1:

Any other tips it could be well. The opt-in page is. I always think of it as like a YouTube thumbnail, because it's the first thing you see before the actual content. So it should be optimized for attention. It should be optimized for curiosity. You should grab like sparkly curiosity and see what's going to be there and, in a way, think of it as what are people willing to exchange for their contact information? Don't think of it as a sales page where they need to put their credit card details. They need to buy something. It's really.

Speaker 1:

Don't oversell it either. Make sure it's like we're exchanging contact details for something valuable. How can I make this valuable enough for them to exchange it? But don't seem like I'm giving them the world like $5,000 in value for your email address. We know there's some of these offers. It just looks bad. It just looks scammy. People are getting sophisticated with their marketing, with what content they see online. They learn what's in front of them. They know what a webinar is. They know it's going to be an offer at the end. It's more about like how can I make this experience seem real to them and actually be valuable to them when they opt in Nice?

Speaker 2:

beautiful. Okay, if you want to get the rest of those tactics that I mentioned, go to datadrivenmarketingco, slash double. And, as always, if you found the interview useful and you want to get future episodes, subscribe. Wherever it is that you listened, boris, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom with everybody and, most of all, thank you for listening. Alright, see you next time. Thank you.