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The Art of Selling Online Courses
The Art of Selling Online Courses is all about online courses.
The goal of this podcast is to share winning strategies and secret hacks from top performers in the online course industry. We are interviewing successful business owners, asking them questions on how they got to the point where they are right now, and checking how their ideas can help you improve your online course!
The Art of Selling Online Courses
$26.8K in 30 Days With Just 6 Simple Changes
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In this episode, Martina Viljevac and Nikola Veselinović from our team reveal exactly how they helped a client go from $12,000 to $26,800 in monthly revenue using the same amount of traffic and zero paid advertising.
The results speak for themselves. Revenue increased from $12K to $26.8K monthly, representing a 2.23x growth. Their sales page conversion rate jumped from 5.2% to 12.7%, and premium option purchases went from 20% to 55% of all sales. The welcome sequence alone now adds $1,500 per week, which equals $72,000 annually. All of this was achieved with the same traffic, same offers, just better optimization.
You'll learn about the "flow" design principle that more than doubled conversion rates and discover how to make expensive options irresistible without changing prices. We'll explain why tripwire pages with 3 steps kill conversions and dive deep into the psychology behind pricing page optimization. The episode covers order bump versus upsell strategy for maximum revenue, plus the welcome email sequence framework that generates $6K per month. We also discuss why design matters more than you think, but less than designers claim.
🤩 Learn the proven framework where each email has a specific purpose designed to build trust, showcase your value, and encourage action with our Perfect Welcome Email Sequence course: https://datadrivenmarketing.co/services
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finished the month at 26,800. 2.23x in revenue with just the evergreen funnel changes, no email promos, only evergreen traffic, and with the same amount of traffic that they were getting before.
Speaker 2:Conversion rates jumped from 5.2% to 12.7%.
Speaker 1:Before, 20% of people were buying the more expensive offer and now 55% are buying the more expensive offer, and the offer is exactly the same. It's just the design that changed.
Speaker 2:It's literally the same offer, the same prices, just presented in a way that helps people understand the real value 50% increase just from adding the welcome meal sequence $1,500 a week.
Speaker 3:Start taking notes here. Just think what could happen. Hello and welcome to the Art of Selling online courses. We are here to share winning strategies and secret hacks from top performers in the online course industry. My name is Jon Antwerp and today's guests are Martina Vilovac and Nikola Veselinjevic.
Speaker 3:Now, martina is a tech enthusiast and a funnel strategist. She has a great eye for detail and she works in our project management team. She focuses on funnel building and automation for online course creators. Now, her specialty is creating these really detailed plans, ensuring everything runs incredibly smoothly in front of those plans. It's it's insane to work. Her watch it's absolutely fantastic. And nicola is our junior account manager and he's got a strong foundation in business and marketing strategy. He's got this great combination of academic knowledge and practical sales experience. His expertise is really about creating marketing deliverables that not only look stunning but drive real results for our clients as well. We're going to talk about a recent project that Martina and Nicola had been working on and they were able to add over 200% in revenue to our clients funnel. We're going to talk about what they did and why it worked, and how you can do it as well. Martina, nicola, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you, happy to be here.
Speaker 3:So what did this client's funnel look like before, and what does it look like now?
Speaker 1:Nicola, feel free to correct me here. I'd say their funnel was pretty average when it comes to all the clients that we talked to, when it comes to how much was set up, how it was all organized and how well it was doing. It was very average. I think that's the right word. So they had a very strong social media following. This was doing very well for them. So they had a huge Instagram account and have presented themselves as an expert in the industry. So people who were following them on Instagram trusted them a lot.
Speaker 1:So when they launched the lead magnet this was months before we started working together they managed to get at least 9,000 new leads every month. So that's 2,000 to 4,000 leads every single week. And that gave us a lot of running ground to set the funnel up in the backend, because what happened after people joined the list was pretty much not much. So the landing page was doing well. But then they had one of those three-step tripwire forms tripwire pages, you know when you sign up for an email list and then it says number one check your inbox. Number two watch this video. Number three click this button and check out the offer, which pretty much no one was doing. So after that there was no welcome email sequence whatsoever.
Speaker 3:So people who wanted to buy the offer would do that through social media or from a very small PS section on the Lead Magnet landing page. Okay, so let's just break down that actually a little bit, because there's a couple of lessons for people to learn here. So why was it that, when you had these three things on that confirmation? So first of all, explain, when you said tripwire page there, what exactly do you mean? And then, why was nobody buying that offer? It's very obvious to us, right? Somebody listening might not understand, so it's really important to kind of explain this properly.
Speaker 1:Yes. So basically, the Tripwire page is the page you see right after you sign up for a lead magnet. It usually says thank you for signing up for this lead magnet. The PDF is in your inbox. That's the page where you reference the fact that someone has just given you their email address and you tell them what the next steps are. Now for our client's page. The page had three steps and the issue with those is, the purpose of the tripwire page is for you to introduce one simple next step for your audience to do, which you want to be a next purchase that makes sense for them.
Speaker 1:A tripwire offer is the offer that's usually $27 to $97 on that thank you page. That is a logical next step for people who've just opted in. So no three steps. One simple next step Going to the email inbox and watching the video. Kind of goes without saying.
Speaker 1:If you just have a simple banner on top that says hey, your lead magnet is on its way to your, or you say your PDF guide is on its way to your inbox, and then you actually show a video, you don't have to tell them, hey, click here and watch this video. And then the third step go and click to watch this offer. You can just present the offer. So, above the fold, when someone loads the page on mobile and on desktop, the banner says thank you for opting in or thank you for signing up for the PDF, or whatever the lead magnet is. And then you present the offer A clear video, show your face, a call to action button and compelling copy. Simplify it a lot, so no one has to then scroll down, find the next step and click on it to do it. It's all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like when you have three things for everyone to do that no one's going to do the third one, like the chance of it is almost nothing right, because most people will look at the page and go, oh I don't even need this page and close it, unless you like make it so clear like this is what you should do next and make it really exciting and compelling, or have you so having that it's just too many things is distracting. So, okay, cool. So anyone who's got a page like that we're going to talk through later on, I think, how you know what you might change that to. But okay, so that's that's. I interrupted you partway through. You were telling us, like, what they kind of had in place. You said they had this on the tripwire page. They had no welcome email sequence, what else was kind of there or not there in the funnel.
Speaker 1:So the way to get to the offer was people searching through social media or again that PS section on the landing page for the lead magnet. So there was an offer somewhere in the back end. At no point was it directly said hey, go, this is going to make your life better, and it is so. When the sales page and the checkout page converted below the benchmarks but I'd say most people's pages are, so that was pretty standard. So they had a funnel that on the first glance, looked okay.
Speaker 1:However, it wasn't optimized strategically. There was no we teach this concept 15 elements of a well-optimized sales page. So there was so much, so many things like a money-back guarantee, bonuses, stuff that wasn't presented on the front end. It was all hidden in the back and, unfortunately, most people, most buyers, don't stop and think and do the research. You have to show it to them. All of that was hidden. It was a pretty simple sales page, again, well-designed and well-written, but a lot of it was missing. We've basically rewritten the whole page, redesigned it. Nicola did a great job with just making sure. Once you read through this page and we've shown this page to a few clients already and everyone was like okay, yes, I see what you mean. It's like a very good way to guide people through the customer journey without them having to do the thinking themselves.
Speaker 3:Nice, okay, cool. So what's the changes that we made in the funnel then?
Speaker 1:So we simplified the tripwire funnel, optimized the sales page, optimized the checkout page, we have optimized the order bump and then upsell We'll go into more detail later and we've added a welcome sequence that did not exist at all. And we started doing email promotions. So like six changes.
Speaker 3:Okay, cool, and what difference did that make in terms of revenue?
Speaker 1:So their average before we started working together was $12,000 a month, and that was a pretty standard month. It did start going up the last few months, but never above $13,000, $14,000. And then, once we started making all these changes, we finished the month at $26,800. With no email promos, only evergreen traffic and with the same amount of traffic that they were getting before. So 2.23x in revenue with just the evergreen funnel changes.
Speaker 3:Okay, so not even doing email promotion. This is just from the Tripwire funnel, simplifying it, so it just goes straight into the offer improving that sales page, the checkout page, adding the order bump or changing the order bump, adding an upsell and a welcome email sequence. Did that contribute to this as well? Yes, okay, great, amazing, and that brought in $14,000 more revenue. Well, that sounds like it's worth doing, doesn't it? Okay, right? Just to give people an idea, what kind of amount of audience did they have on Instagram? You said Instagram, right was the main traffic source.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have 220,000 people on Instagram followers.
Speaker 3:Okay, and without necessarily saying the niche, what's the kind of space? Are they selling a hobby thing? Is it in the consumer space? Is it business to business?
Speaker 1:What kind of space is it in? It's mostly side hustle things, so a way to make an extra revenue from home okay, cool sounds scammy is that. That is, that is the, I think I got a message about this the other day.
Speaker 3:I could make 173 pounds per month working per day working from home I was just like oh wow, let's do that okay. So is this something that's very obviously not scammy? Is this like just you see, see it and you're like, oh yeah, no, that's totally fair enough? Or is it something where it's a real kind of, you know, beginner make money online kind of thing, or what?
Speaker 1:No point is it promised that you're going to become a millionaire off of this. This is a 12,000 to 2,000 extra a month from doing reviews on a very popular selling website. From doing reviews on a very popular selling website, and the fact that helps this is there's hundreds of testimonials of people who have managed to do this and have managed to earn more money, and the way to see if someone has succeeded in this is very yes or no. So if you manage to get accepted, you're in, and we had lots of testimonials of people having done this before and being able to see the results. So when you say making money online, that's super scammy.
Speaker 3:The fact is, this is such a I mean it's funny, right, because we all make money online, right? Everyone listening makes money online. But when you say it like that, if you're like, oh, here's an Instagram account that's going to teach you how to make money online, it sounds like, oh, I don't know about this kind of thing. Okay, so this one is very reputable, it works, it's a crucial thing, right? They're not trying to upsell you into some something else that isn't going to work and you have to pyramid scheme and whatever. Okay, so that's good, right. So let's go through this kind of step by step then. So what was the you mentioned? Obviously you've changed that, that tripwire page. What changes do you make to the sales page? What kind of changes? And you said it was really nicely designed afterwards. Well, you said it was nicely designed before, but then the design was improved afterwards. So, kind of, talk me through that and what was the impact from those things?
Speaker 1:I think Nikolai can handle this one. He spent a lot of time figuring out doing the research. He's done the best of this.
Speaker 2:When it comes to the previous like sales page, it was pretty solid from the standpoint that it had a lot of proper elements, but it was kind of chunked up and not so visually pleasing. And before we kind of dive deep into the client specific results and what we did, I want to make an observation that might surprise a lot of course creators. When it comes to the marketing funnels and like designs, design is way more important than more most like course creators think, but is not nearly as important as professional designers would have you to believe. So, yeah, what that actually means. Now I know what you all thinking like. We all heard about those stories about those terrible looking pages that like convert extremely well. And yes, those pages exist.
Speaker 2:But there are like real measurable benefits to having a good design that literally like directly impacts your revenue, and I can give you a couple of those. So, for example, the first one is that you have around three to five seconds to build a trust with a visitor, and a clean, modern design instantly like signals that you're credible and professional, and poor design like creates doubt before people even start reading the copy. The second thing is that good design can actually guide the customer's attention. So it uses layout, contrast and visual tools to actually direct people's eyes exactly where you want them to go. So, for example, headlines call to action, buttons and things like that and without this attention scatters and there is like a higher chance that people will leave the page to the previous page there was kind of all the elements was one element was left one down, one here and there, and the attention kind of scatters throughout the page. The third like thing is that clean design actually reduces mental strain. What that means when a page is kind of like cluttered or confusing, people have to work harder to understand the author. So good design makes everything like instantly clear. It makes it easier for prospects to navigate through the actual page and understand the value and the complete offer. And let's say the fourth thing could be that it can also amplify like emotional side. So high converting, high quality and high resolution images, mock-ups and graphics can help people like visualize themselves literally getting the results you promise or getting through the course materials, which definitely helps with the conversions.
Speaker 2:But the flip side that I was talking about, the professional designers would look at the high converting sales page and probably say things like there is not enough white space. The layout is strange, the color gradient could be smoother. And the classical one. Please exclude the countdown timers. That is the classical one. But that's exactly what I mean when I say do not go like overboard to that direction there is. There are kind of the higher ROI activities than perfecting every design details.
Speaker 2:And here's something really important to understand we are not trying to create like the perfect branded website or homepage. We are trying to create like sales page designed to get someone to buy right now, on the spot. So these are two completely different goals with two completely different designs. And just think about it like a branded website is looking polished, nice, professional, clean, like minimal and it focuses on like a brand image. But a sales page, that's about the immediate action.
Speaker 2:You see the countdown timers, you see the limited time, offers, testimonials, order bumps, upsells all the elements that create actually the urgency and drive the actual conversions. So designers might call it like cluttered or over the top, but that's actually what converts. So the sweet spot to let's compile all of this that I was talking about the sweet spot is to have a good design that builds trust and like guides attention, without getting so caught up in like perfecting that. You remove the elements that actually make people buy, for example countdown timers. So that's actually what we apply to the client's funnel and I can go over one one like major concept If you want. But if you have questions, you feel free to ask me something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. So let me try and repeat that back to you, so see if I can summarize it for the listeners. It's really important that the design is good enough quality that it builds trust. You need, ideally, to use elements that focus people's attention in the right place, elements that, like, focus people's attention in the right place. Yes, we don't want something that is, you know, visually and aesthetically pleasing but isn't focused on on sales, and so you kind of have to understand design is important, but it's a specific kind of design. It's kind of like conversion focused design that we're after here. Okay, so yeah, and we'll go through that. One element can you give us any, like any tips on how, how people can actually do that? So someone's heard this. They're like yes, nikola, you've convinced me, I'm excited about this, but I don't know how to do it. So what's like a starting point, what's a couple of tips people can do? So?
Speaker 2:for example, for this sales page, we made a lot of changes, probably like a dozen of small tweaks and improvements. I'm now not going to talk about what to pick up, font that is readable and things that those stuff people know but instead of going to every single detail, let me walk you actually through the main concept that we use when creating high converting sales pages designs. I rarely hear anybody talking about it, but it's super crucial and all of the designers and all of the best brands in the world actually use it. It's called flow. So when we talk about flow in the sales page design, we are talking about how smoothly a visitor moves through your page from top to bottom without and this is crucial getting confused, distracted or, let's say, lost. Think of it like a guided tour that tells a story. So you want to take someone by the hand and lead them through the actual logical sequence. First you grab their attention with a strong headline, then you connect with their challenges and present the solution. You then build the trust through testimonials and things like that, but also handle the objections to, for example, frequently asked questions section and things like that, and then finally you ask them to buy. So the design has to support the psychological journey every step of the way. That means using and here are the actual tips using the visual hierarchy so big headlines, smaller sub-headlines, different font weights, so people know exactly what to read first. So they will first read the big headline headline, then the smaller sub-headline. It also means like using the plenty of white space so they do not feel overwhelmed or confusing or by the wall of texts. It also means using like directional clues, for example arrows, lines and even images pointing toward the call to action buttons. So all of those stuff. And also one really important thing that that we see that course creators do is they do not use the consistent call to action button. Your call to action button also needs to be consistent throughout the page, so same color, same style, same copy, so people brains learn to recognize this is where I take action without having to actually think about it or read through it and things like that.
Speaker 2:And what actually happens when and why this is so important. When the flow is broken, people start like jumping around the page randomly. They miss the key selling points. They got stuck reading, for example, testimonials for five minutes and completely forgot what you are actually selling. They literally leave the page confused and overwhelmed, even if the offer is exactly what they actually need. But when the flow is actually right, your page feels like reading a good story they can't like put down. Each section naturally leads to the next, builds desire and trust, until clicking like that by now feels like an obvious next step. So this is exactly what we did, what we did for this client's page, and our redesign like created the smooth, logical journey that guided visitors straight to the purchasing decision, which is a big reason why we saw those conversion rates jump from 5.2 percent to 12.7 percent. And that is actually amazing because the previous page kind of had all the elements, which furthermore proves the the value of actually presenting it in the nice flow way. So that is one major concept that rarely who talks about.
Speaker 3:So when you say those conversion percentages, that's the percentage of people who clicked through to the checkout page right.
Speaker 2:I think so, Martino, correctly. If I'm wrong, yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, so it went from 5.5% to 12.7%. So, on its own, did I get those numbers right? Yes, 12.7%. So more than doubled, about two and a half times. Yes, and that's people who were on the sales page who get as far as the checkout page. Now, most people, when they're looking at conversion rates, first of all, most people don't look at conversion rates but if they do, very few people look at that kind of conversion percentage in terms of breaking it down into sales page to checkout page and then checkout page to to eventual sale. Can you give people some kind of an idea either of you, of the what you've seen as like an average kind of conversion rate you see from people generally, and then what's like a good level for those steps from from sales page to the checkout page?
Speaker 2:for, like, let's say, average sales page to checkout page is around two to five percent. But five percent is kind of good. It's kind of good. It's kind of good. A lot of people have, for example, 1% or things like that. So having like 12% or 15% is what we call the high converting sales page. So it's kind of the amazing results. Out of the 100 people, 12 will go to the next step, which is absolutely amazing.
Speaker 1:If you have like a lot of traffic and things like that on your page, there's one very important element here the fact that they had two offers, two pricing plans on the sales page, and what helped is more people were now going to the higher price. So, nikolaj, if you could walk us through the design of, I think that's what made the biggest change here, an impact on the fact that before, 20% of people were buying the more expensive offer and now 55% are buying the more expensive offer, and the offer is exactly the same. It's just the design that changed.
Speaker 2:Which is absolutely massive. Now, when it comes to that payment plan section, this actually perfectly represents what I was saying about the importance of design and how we present the things on the sales page, because we are talking, like Martina says, about the exact same offer, just presented in a completely different way, and the results spoke for themselves. Before our changes, the client's pricing section didn't really show people why they should pick the more expensive option. So we had like 97 option and 197 option, just for people to know what we are talking about. And, for example, that 197 option was a bit bigger and like presented first, like that's enough, but that is really not enough to convince anyone to pay the twice the price. So the result was that 80% of people choose the actual cheaper option.
Speaker 2:So we completely restructured it. First, we switched the sites and presented the basics option to 97.1 first. And when we are presenting like the basic option, we don't want to make it look bad, so nobody picks it. That's not the goal. We want it to look like a great deal, just that the second one is even better value. So for that second one, more expensive one, we didn't just make it bigger, we actually added a specific copy that clearly explains why this is the better deal and why it makes sense to actually choose it. We put it in a nice color that brings attention but isn't too flashy or salesy or pushy. We also properly positioned the elements and make the most important differential like differences bigger so people immediately like understand what are, uh, what is the difference and what are they getting extra for their buck. And also we position like 30 day money back guarantee text right below the call to action button to completely eliminate like the risk from the customer's perspective and one thing that I rarely see anybody do so.
Speaker 2:For example, for that specific offer, the main difference was that you are going to get like five more months of special community access. So we actually added the whole community, the whole section immediately below that pricing table that explains in details why the community access makes all the difference, because some people won't automatically see the value in community access. So we wanted to clearly explain the benefits and why it's worth more money. So the results it's completely flipped the numbers. So before, like I said, said around 80 percent chose the cheaper option, but now, after the changes, 51 percent chose the one, the more expensive option. So we basically got more people to choose the second option, which means way more revenue per customer. And it's literally the same offer, the same prices, just presented in a way that helps people like understand the real value and what they're getting, which is absolutely amazing that you can actually make so much more money just by presenting your like existing stuff differently.
Speaker 3:Beautiful, all right. So I'm going to run through. I've got this up on the screen for myself and I'm really sorry to you, dear listener, that we can can't actually share this, that we can't like show you this. It's a client's funnel, so we can't like absolutely kind of share every detail of it, but we can explain it and describe it. So start taking notes here, right? So, if you've not been already.
Speaker 3:So the the more expensive one we've got a little badge at the top that says most popular, to let them know this is, you know, kind of a social proof like this is what other people are getting. This is the one that you should be getting. And then the cheaper one it says get started. And the more expensive one says best value, which is true. It's much better value because for an extra hundred dollars they're getting, instead of two weeks, community access, they're getting six months. So massive, massive increase.
Speaker 3:We've got a little description underneath that which is the same on the cheaper and the more expensive one, except the more expensive one says plus, you get the six months of community support and personal guidance to ensure your success. Then it mentions the price. Then underneath it says the plus six months of community access and that's in bold. And this one on the right, the more expensive one is much. It draws your eye. That visual thing that nicola's talking about the color that we have as the background makes your eye naturally go to look at that one. It kind of you just I could. I could look at the page and I could feel my eyes being drawn to the one on the right, which is very interesting to see. Then it's got lots of details about that private community access as bullet points. So bullet points underneath the, the pricing and the, where it says six months of community access and then the call to action button for both is get instant access. But the one on the right, the one we're trying to get people to focus on, is a different color button. It's more attention grabbing and underneath both says 30-day money back guarantee.
Speaker 3:So that's some changes you can make. If you've got two pricing options, you can basically take that list, go through and apply that on yours, get the design updated and on its own that is likely to increase the number of people are going for the more expensive option. Increase your, your revenue. As long as you do a good job with it, all right. What's next? What else have we implemented on on this and what other kind of changes we got? What changes do you make to the order bump and the upsell?
Speaker 1:so order bump and upsell. Previously there was an order bump at membership acts that we just talked about. There was a $19 a month membership order bump and it was doing okay. Should we say 30 to 60% conversion rate is good. Here they were getting 24%, which is almost at the benchmark level. The fact was that they had a very low churn rate so people who got the membership stayed there and that wasn't a one-off fee, so they were paying monthly afterwards. So we didn't want to get rid of the membership order bump. However, by experience we knew that the order bump would do better if it was a one-off purchase.
Speaker 1:So we moved the membership order bump to the upsell place. So once you buy the course you're presented with the membership, the continuation for $19 a month. You are charged when your current membership community access expires, so either in two weeks or six months from now. So that moved there. It used to convert to 24% and now at the upsell I think it converts around 21%. So there's only a slight difference there. But the improvement that's happened was when we added a one of 47 order bump to the checkout page and that now converts at 41% instead of the previous 24. And that increase overall, the changes in the order bumps and upsells increase the revenue by 20% 19.8, let's say so 20% increase in revenue just by having a one-off order bump instead of the membership one and then moving the membership one as the next step rather than the one that happens on the checkout page so 21 conversion rate for that as an upsell for a continuity offers and upsells really good it's really good.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you this. This is a good offer. We're not talking about any fluff here. So people do want guidance and hand-holding and just someone to support them through this journey. And the community is also very, very valuable. There's a lot of conversation there, people share accesses. People keep in this community just for the sake of having it, not just for the sake of achieving the first goal. So they keep it, pay $19 a month and get value out of it.
Speaker 3:Would you generally recommend to people if they've got a membership, if they've got some kind of continuity offer like that, to put it in as an? No, that's what I was thinking. I normally tell people not to do that because I'm like man, that's not an easy upsell to have in place.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it's also not an easy order bump.
Speaker 3:Exactly. It's not an easy order bump. No, it's amazing that it converted as well as it did. I'm stunned.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:But in this case we knew that it was kind of converting so we could try it as the upsell, so that kind of makes sense. Why is it for anybody who's like, well, one minute. Why wouldn't you do that? Just talk people through. Why we would say not to do it?
Speaker 1:So if we're talking about a one-off purchase on the front end, I'm buying a course Usually people do not like. They think of memberships as utility bills so I'm buying something for $97 and now I have to mentally understand, okay. And now I have to mentally understand, okay, I'm also being charged a membership. I'm getting charged now and 30 days from now I'm also getting charged a membership, and that membership is something different to what I've paid a one-off fee for. So there's a lot of understanding that goes into this and people like to understand where their money is going. So it's either one-off product with a one-off order, pump and upsell, or it's all membership, just because you get prepared for the fact that you're paying for something in 30 days from now and 60 days again.
Speaker 3:Mixing those usually doesn't really. It doesn't do well, just because people have to. Yeah, I mean, that's the short answer as to why not to do it, isn't it? Is it doesn't do work very well, you know, it generally doesn't work and our understanding is, like you're saying, is that it's because it's just. People are like, oh, I, I think a lot of times, especially when it's at the front end, people are like well, I don't know you yet, I don't know if your stuff's good, and now I've got remember to cancel in 30, in the next 30 days, if it's not good enough, and I know that I'll forget.
Speaker 3:I went and I went through our wise account the other day, martina and I. I found stuff that we'd been paying for for ages and it made me feel sick. I was just like God, that was our money and somebody else has got it because we didn't make a note to cancel. Whatever it was One of them. We got back I don't know what it was Two years of membership from some. I don't know something or other.
Speaker 3:It was a client, right, we'd signed up for a client's product and we'd signed up for a client's product and then it was like how to I don't know, learn classical guitar or something like this, and it's like we've been charged a year and a half of this membership and we never used it because none of us were learning classical guitar, but it's so easy to do, okay. So it doesn't work. And the reason it doesn't work is the two of those don't really go very well together. They're having the one-off product and having the the recurring. So therefore, if you've got a one-off product and having the recurring, so therefore, if you've got a one-off product which you generally would have as your tripwire offer, then have a one-off order bump and probably a one-off upsell as well, and the membership keep for later on, after you've built some more trust, sell it through an email promotion, sell it through the end of the welcome sequence, whatever it is somewhere else, you know, not in the tripwire funnel, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this sounds great. Talk me through. Actually, I just mentioned the welcome sequence. Talk me through what changes you made there. This one's pretty simple. There was no welcome email sequence before and we've added our.
Speaker 1:We call it the perfect welcome email sequence. We actually have a course on it. So it's eight emails in seven days, if you count the first one. The first day after someone signs up. The first few emails are very content-based you talk people through your story, your mission, the values share, values share, testimonials share.
Speaker 1:Basically, we have a structure where it starts with people getting to know you. So the theory is and it works in practice that by the time they get to the end of the welcoming sequence so days six and seven they trust you a lot more. They're much more convinced that what you are saying is truthful. They've seen the stories, the case studies, they've heard how you've managed to figure all of this out, and then you present them with the offer again. So in this case, we're talking about the same exact offer that they saw on the Tripwire page once they signed up, the same offer that we've optimized the funnel for, and then they're presented the same offer six days after opting in. So once they've gotten a chance to kind of learn more about this and yeah, it's pretty much just adding the welcome email sequence. Don't leave things to chance and just deliver the lead magnet and then not email your leads ever again.
Speaker 3:All right. So you mentioned we've got a course on that. How can someone wants that? How can they get hold of that? Can they buy that? At the moment? Is that only available certain times.
Speaker 1:Yes, we have the datadrivedmarketingco I think it's slash services and there's all of our courses there. One of them is the perfect welcome sequence and this is, I promise you, the same exact structure that you've used.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, yeah got it. It's on for $197. Perfect, okay.
Speaker 1:One note is, though, when I'm going to mention how much money they've made, they are getting at least 2 000 new leads a week. So this is based on the fact that they're getting a lot new leads in, and then there is converting. Very well, if you were getting 10 20 a week, the results obviously wouldn't be as revenue wise as high yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely okay.
Speaker 3:So if you want the welcoming more sequence course, go to data driven marketingco slash services. Okay, then we've mentioned there's a couple of other things. We've mentioned that I want to give people some free resources around. So we've talked a little bit about the tripwire funnel. If you want to listen to a podcast episode about the tripwire funnel, then there's a couple I want to point you to. There's one from february 27th, episode 125, and it's called the Highest Converting Funnel Ever bracket tripwire funnel and that was with Yosip I think. Let me have a little look. That might just have been me explaining that. Oh, my goodness, it's a four-minute episode, wow, okay, shortest one ever, okay. So then there's a longer one in more detail. So this is exploring tripwire funnels with yosip bolina that's spelled yosip, spelled with a j, and that is episode 102, and that's from august 25th 2023. And then how to optimize your tripwire funnel. If you want to get advanced with it is episode 132 from april 11th 2024, called how to optimize your tripwire funnel with yosip Lena.
Speaker 3:Okay, what else did we talk about? Sales pages and checkout? We didn't talk about checkout pages much Order bumps. I'm going to give you some stuff if you want to check that out. There is an episode 96 called the order bumps advantage, which is from July 13th 2023. Is that the? I can't be the only one we've done about order bumps? That would blow my mind. If that's true, wow, okay, and then upsells. I'm not finding any episodes. I think the search in our podcast is playing up a little bit, but that's hopefully enough to kind of get going and make some improvements. Okay, what else have we got here? Anything else that we should take people through? We threw the results from the welcome sequence.
Speaker 1:So the welcome sequence added around $1,500 a week, which is around $6,000. It's been three weeks so I'm assuming it's going to make the same average as before, because it usually makes around $1,500. So that's $6,000 extra a month and if you think about it, the initial revenue was $12,000. So that's 50% increase just from the adding the welcoming well sequence.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's nice, isn't?
Speaker 3:it yeah $70,000 a month, sorry, a year. $70,000 a year, which is more than some people's wages. From a welcoming well sequence, I mean, obviously they'd already done all the work of you know, becoming an expert, building a big instagram channel and making the courses, so there's not like it's just you do this one thing on its own, but still, that's pretty cool. That's a nice. That's a nice boost.
Speaker 3:Um, if somebody wants, let's say, someone's got a design, a page so, nicola, you were talking about the design being so important someone's got a page, they're going to launch a course, so they've got a course that they're already selling and they want help with the design for it, then they can reach out to us about that. That's not something we often sell individually, but if you're listening to this and you're like you know what, what I really need is the shit that Nicola's talking about. I need Nicola to redesign my sales page and make it convert from was it 5.2% to 12.7% increase in conversion rate. Then hit us up and we're going to have a chat about designing a page for you as well. Just let us know. Just drop me an email, john, at datadrivenmarketingco. Okay, anything else that people should know about this in terms of what they need to implement or what they can kind of learn from this case study.
Speaker 1:There's one thing we kind of slightly overlooked. It's the fact that we've added, or we've referenced, the money back guarantee on the sales page. I don't think we've mentioned that. So there was a money back guarantee previously in terms of if someone emailed them and said, hey, I want my money back, they would give them the money back. And now we've added that on the sales page and I think in total, two people reached out.
Speaker 1:It is a conditional money-back guarantee. None of them qualified for the conditions but we refunded both and that's on two 300 purchases that happened so far. So adding the money-back guarantee to reassure people hey, if you don't get the results or you don't achieve a b and c, email me and we're going to get your money back. That helped a lot, probably with just showing that we are so sure in this and that it's going to work so that, if it doesn't, we give people the money back. But again, no one really qualified for their conditions and the return, the refund rate, was pretty much the same as before, just because people email you if you don't money back, regardless of having the qualification.
Speaker 3:Yes, you might as well get the benefit of letting people know that we're the kind of people who would give you a refund and therefore you're going to make more sales, because more people who are like on the fence, like, oh, I don't know about this, will be like I can get it and then, if it doesn't work, I'll get my money back. Okay, cool, great, yeah, back. Okay, cool, great, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it's madness when people are like don't want to give a money back guarantee because they're like what if someone asked for a refund? It's like well, make, first of all, make sure your product works and it's good and people are going to like it. And secondly, it's like what if they want their money back, give them their money back. It's like, if it's in, you know, a reasonable amount of time, it's a course, it doesn't cost you anything, you didn't have to ship it to them, nothing like that. You know like, yes, be, be a good person, you know. It's like it's such a big deal. You get really nervous that someone's going to buy the course, go through the course and then ask for a refund, and it's like I mean, some people might, but it's a small number, I mean, that's not the ones to focus on. The ones to focus on are, like the good, nice people who are just a bit nervous about buying because they've not bought this thing from you before. They don't know if it's going to work.
Speaker 1:We do get asked a lot hey, what if the fact that I'm adding the refunds now, I make less money than I did before and I have never, ever seen the fact that the money-back guarantee exists causes you losing money? More people are buying. Some people ask for refunds If it's up to 5%. There's no reason for worry and I've never seen this net negative. It's always better to have it unless you're hiding something and the product isn't good.
Speaker 3:The only reason why it would be good to not have it is if you're scamming people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly.
Speaker 3:Otherwise it doesn't add up financially for you and it isn't right for the customer. It's like this is yeah, people get really nervous about this. So I I get, I get worked up about it because I'm like this is such a big deal, you should have a 30-day money-back guarantee. You absolutely should all right, cool, anything else before I get too worked up on my end.
Speaker 1:No, not sure about Nicola.
Speaker 3:Cool Nicola, anything you need to leave people with.
Speaker 2:No, I would just add that we kind of had an amazing goal for results on the checkout pages, but that was kind of the standard, the standard redesigning, like adding testimonials, money back guarantee, presenting everything in a bullet points, because sometimes people kind of forgot why they clicked on the checkout page if they click in the frequently asked questions. People kind of forgot why they clicked on the checkout page if they click in the frequently asked questions. So we want them to remind them what's inside the course and to reassure them that they have money by guarantee that other people had actually successfully got the, the actual like goal that they are going after. So I think that all that also bring the amazing results. But yeah, that was nothing like specifically new, just the standard optimization of the of the checkout page if you want to learn what the optimizations are on a checkout page, then go check out.
Speaker 3:The episode I did recently with boris called 12 checkout page tricks to get more sales instantly from july 24th 2025 which, as we're recording, this is only a couple of weeks ago and there boris went into so much detail on every single thing that you should have on the checkout page, exactly how to have it, and it was like there's a bunch of stuff. I learned that I was like I didn't even realize you're supposed to have that little little details and stuff as well, but that's like, yeah, that makes a really big difference to have all of that stuff in place. I really like what you said there, nicola. People have almost forgotten, haven't they? Like what? What am I getting? What am I? How am I here?
Speaker 3:and it's really funny because it's like you're, you can't as the seller, you can't believe that. You're like what? Are these people idiots or something right? So I was chatting with my mate, steph, the other day and in london they've got a load of those uber bikes, like lime bikes, that you can rent and that you just like electric bikes, you ride around town, whatever. And I was bitching to him how I'd been on my way to meet him and as I was walking up to a bike, I was like 20 meters away and then somebody else walked up and they got it before I got there and I was like.
Speaker 3:And he's like, yeah, but there's a button on the screen that says reserve and you can reserve it for like up to 10 minutes. While you're walking up to it and I was like, oh, I never noticed that. And he's an app designer and he just driven crazy because he's like he's trying to make it really obvious to his customers who are using his app what they need to do, so he's put these big buttons. He'll put little text on screen telling them what to do. And he's like no one seems to look at it, they don't just read it, they don't look at anything. And he was just like you're one of them, john. You're, they put this big blue button that says reserve and you're just like why can't I get my bike? But it's like you know, that's how we all work, right? We just we're busy, we're thinking about something else and what we're gonna have for dinner and what have you. And then we're like trying to check out. I'm like, oh yeah, do I want this thing again? I can't remember, I'm not sure. And then you kind of just leave the checkout page. So you need like those bullet points reminding them what's in it the guarantee again, the testimonials again. All of this, just a little bit of each of them on that checkout page. But, yeah, check out that podcast episode to um to get a full, a full breakdown of exactly what things to change.
Speaker 3:I think checkout pages might be one of the easiest things people could improve. Yeah, probably because it's like that's you're using Teachable, which even Teachable. The checkout page stinks on Teachable, but even on Teachable, you can make improvements that make it convert better reasonably easily, can't you? You know so fantastic. Well, thank you both so much for coming on. Congratulations on an amazing success with this client and I'm looking forward to hearing what else you achieve for her and helping her make even more money when she actually starts doing email promotions as well. Just think what could happen. Nice, thank you, as always, so much for listening. Really, really appreciate you. If you found the interview useful and you want to get future episodes, subscribe wherever it is that you listened, and if you want help with design of one of your sales pages, then just drop me an email, john, at datadrivenmark.