The Art of Selling Online Courses

203 AI vs Human Course Creation: What Actually Works (From a $1 Billion Platform CEO)

• John Ainsworth

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Is AI killing your course sales? In this episode, I talk with Panos Siozos, CEO of LearnWorlds - the platform that's powered over $1 billion in course sales for 11,000+ creators worldwide.

We dive deep into why using AI to write your course content is "doing a disservice" to your students (and your bank account). Panos reveals the right way to use AI as a "co-pilot" with specific examples you can implement today, including how to create assessments that actually help students learn.

We also cover why content is becoming a commodity and what actually matters now for course success. Plus, Panos shares the Socratic dialogue method that transforms boring content into engaging experiences that keep students hooked.

With 25+ years of experience in educational technology and having built his first learning management system back in 1999, Panos reveals exactly how LearnWorlds uses AI to help course creators scale without losing their personal connection with students.

đź”— Download The Five Layers of AI Framework for Instructional Designers: https://www.learnworlds.com/five-layers-ai-expertise-instructional-design/
đź”— Check out LearnWorlds: https://www.learnworlds.com/

#OnlineCourses #CourseCreation #LearnWorlds #AIforCourses #InstructionalDesign

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If you'd like to talk more about how you can grow your course business, email me at john@datadrivenmarketing.

SPEAKER_00:

The most wrong assumption is that AI can create the courses for you. We built effectively our first learning management system back in 1999, more than 25 years ago. In the era of AI, content becomes a commodity. What you cannot afford to jeopardize as a course creator is your own personal brand, your own connection with the students, your own thought leadership position. If somebody uses AI in a basic way, sloppy way, just getting some prompt engineering to avoid to have to write some content, they're probably doing a disservice to the courses, to their own brand, and to their students.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to the Art of Selling Online Course. We're here to get winning strategies. My name is John Antwerp, and today's guest Hannah Gilbert. Now, in the EO Learn World, what they believe is that learning is our true superpower, the one that multiplies programs. And what he did along with his co-fanity to build Learn World gives solo creators, customer educators, enterprise, learning, and development teams who ever building their courses. He tools to turn text and video study into interactive, social, and above all, effective learning. Now today Learn World is powering over 11,000 customers worldwide and generated over a billion dollars in sales. Hanos holds a PhD in educational technology from the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. I might have said that wrong in Greece. So we're going to be talking a lot about AI today and about how you can be using AI in order to improve your courses. We'll get into why LearnWorld is like, you know, what's different about them as well. Hanos, welcome to the show. Hi John, thanks for having me. So talk us through what are some of the things that people believe about AI and courses that you think is wrong.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, it can help you be productive, it can help you transform content from one form to another, repurpose it and everything else, but that's not what AI should be used for. Our perception of AI and how we bring AI at the help at the service of our uh of our customers, uh the content creators and the instructional designers, is for AI to be their co-pilot. So they can curate experiences. They can get AI to do some of the most boring stuff, uh get the the grant work away from them so they can focus on what they are truly best at. In the era of AI, content becomes a commodity. So content is not really the most important thing. You can have AI write some bloat, some slope for you, and it it will most probably do. But what you cannot afford to jeopardize as a course creator is your own personal brand, your own connection with the students, your own thought leadership position, you being the trusted guide that people need as they learn something, so that you can help them through this transformative uh experience. So if somebody uses AI in a basic uh way, sloppy way, just getting some prompt engineering to get uh to avoid to have to write some content, they're probably doing a disservice to their co to the courses, to their own brand, and to their students.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So let me see if I've understood. So you think if people are using AI to help write the content, then it's probably doing them a disservice, probably not helping them to build that personal brand. And you said that AI can be used to help to curate the experience and as a co-pilot. Can you expand on that a little bit for me? Because I'm not totally sure I understand what you mean.

SPEAKER_00:

In the way, for example, that we brought in uh AI within LearnWaults, I can tell you about our own experience. So when we first started, everybody was experimenting with prompt engineering. We've seen so many platforms out there and tools that really bolted uh AI in some way, and it makes you feel productive. Uh, you can write just a quick prompt and you can get some pretty impressive chunks of uh of text. Uh, but this undervalues the the what a teacher does. But the what's the purpose of somebody who guides you through a transformative experience? Just getting the content uh it's uh easy. People can get all sorts of content. They can go out to Wikipedia, they can go to YouTube. But what the course should be about should be a directed experience, a series of different events, a series of different uh interactions, which in much in some cases it might evolve content, in some cases it might involve uh real discussions and communication that get uh students from point A to point B. That's also the etymology of a course. It's kind of the path. You need the guide to help you reach, start from one point and get to the uh to the next. So increasingly we see platforms that help people create a basic course, but we also see that all this, the output of all these experiences, it's quite similar. It's just uh, you know, there might be slightly more prompting or less prompting, more effective or less effective, but the output is definitely not transformational. And it's something that will uh will end up in uh in courses that have zero value, uh uh there's zero perception of value, and people will not uh keep uh keep paying. I can draw a parallel here between what was happening with um e-books. Ebooks, like online courses, are the e-books of 2025 and 2030. 20 years ago, everybody wanted to become a published author. Everybody wanted to have their face listed as an author in uh in uh in Amazon or somewhere. And then you know you started having all this bloatwear, all these uh uh copy-paste uh things that were that were adding zero values uh as a uh as a channel, it was devalued by the slope and the bad content that was out there. I believe that we should make an effort, and all course creators should make an effort to avoid this. Uh so definitely you can get AI assistance to be more productive, uh, to transform your content. Uh, but what is your added value as an instructor? Where do you sit? How do you analyze what are the needs of your students? How do you plan and direct experiences for them? How do you hyperpersonalize the content to the different learning styles of your users, whether they are visual learners or they are tactile learners, or they learn by examples, or they learn by by apprenticeship. So the content is going to be increasingly more and more of a of a commodity, and the added value would be the instructional design and this guidance and curation of experiences for your students. This is something that AI might follow at some point and catch up, but for now, this personal brand and this personal direction and involvement of the teacher is still the most important uh thing that we can do.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So what what have you been able to do over at Learn Worlds to then help with then are you using? So it says your headline on your website is the number one AI-powered learning management system built for course creators. So where have you found that the AI can help with that? What bits is it useful for?

SPEAKER_00:

Just to give you an example, because definitely we think about the productivity of our customers and how they can be creative themselves. Uh we have embedded AI with some very smart prompt engineering and embedding instructional design principles within our ebook editor. Which means that, yes, you can start with some uh with some basic text, but with the help of AI, using AI as a co-pilot and getting some uh some nice responses from it, you can repurpose your content. You can create a Socratic dialogue now that we were talking about uh uh Greeks and the Aristotle University, and let's go to another philosopher, Socrates. So a Socratic dialogue is the probably the number one instructional design uh method that was ever recorded in human history, where you lay you lead your students to knowledge themselves. So they are asking the qu you are asking the questions and they they respond to your questions and then they re- they get to the to the to the learning, they discover the learning themselves. So you can get a very basic material uh piece of content and you can transform it in numerous ways to a Socratic dialogue, to a role play, to something humorous, to you can you can get uh a basic uh event and uh and transform it into uh transpose it into different uh pieces or uh different periods of history or anything else. So you have uh tremendous variability in the kind of content you can create. I I can give you another example again that is very, very productive. You create uh you want to create an assessment. One of the most boring stuff for course creators is to uh to have to create multiple choice questions. Uh it's like a dreadful task. With our AI copilot, you can drop your text within our editor and you can ask our AI to create for you 100 questions of varying difficulty based on the bloom taxonomy. And for so now, very easily within a few minutes you have all these hundred questions. And then you give out these questions in a text, uh in a test, to 200 students. Is it possible for any teacher these days to provide individual personalized feedback to 200 uh students uh on based on what they have answered in 100 different questions? It's impossible. Like this doesn't scale up. With AI, you can scale it up because our AI can provide personalized feedback to all those students for every one of their correct or uh erroneous answers and point them to where the correct facts or the where the correct uh answers uh might be found in the original text. So the level of attention, personalization, and care you can bring it's something that is beyond the scalable reality of an everyday teacher. So this is how instead of you know you can get some of the boring things away, so you can focus on the on getting these learnings, understanding the the analytics of your users, finding out where they have been failing so that you can double down and you can offer uh more uh more direction in in their in their courses.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so that one I definitely understood. So you've got the assessment, you can put your course or your ebook or whatever it is into your into the AI co-pilot and say, create a hundred questions for me. So now you don't have to go and create all those questions and the multiple choice answers. And you can go through and check and go like, okay, was that one good? Does this make sense? Maybe some of them aren't quite right. Then once you're happy with it, you can give that assessment to your students. They can go through, do the multiple choice answers, and the AI will actually then give feedback to people and say, you got this stuff wrong over here, you need to go and check this bit of the course to kind of restudy that. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Beautiful. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And you can and and this can happen 24-7, uh, no matter how big your audience is. That's probably something that if you had 20 students, you could afford to do that yourself. But if you have 1,000 students or 10,000 students, there's no other way to do that other than uh employing uh means like AI.

SPEAKER_01:

And the Socratic dialogue part that you mentioned, how did that work? What's the process someone would go through if they're using your tool for that?

SPEAKER_00:

This is something that you do on our e-book editor. We have like Learballs as a platform, it's not just a learning imagement system, it's also an authoring environment. So there is an e-book editor where you can go in and you can start copy-pasting your text. And within every paragraph, within every sentence, you can also start revising your text or asking the AI copilot to rewrite the text for you and make it uh uh adapt it to different contexts or to different needs. So the Socratic dialogue is you can get like a boring piece of factual knowledge and you can convert it into a question and answer uh play uh effectively between uh you and and your students. So it's much more interesting about that. You can and if you don't like that as a as a method, you can convert it into a story, into some kind of storytelling or uh or a a different an a different kind of narrative. And you can be very prescriptive. You can get a factual piece of knowledge and transpose it into 11th-century uh England history. So you can you can have real uh, you know, um uh you can use you can even specify which kind of characters you would like to employ. And so this is something that can give you a huge amount of variability and also make it very, very interesting for your uh for your audiences. Obviously, you would like to choose something that you know your audience is uh is related to. That's something that great teachers already do. The fact is, what is our capacity of doing at 24-7, you know, in our busy schedules? Can every course be the best ever course that we that we want to build? I I guess our capacity to uh to create things and improvise and be innovative also is not uh scalable. With the help of AI, we can help you to make that scalable because you can get that extra edge of creativity and productivity to get uh to get some things that you will be very proud of uh you know giving out to your uh to your uh to your students. So does the system does it for you? No, but you direct it, you do it, you do it alone. You have to some things will fail, some uh iterations will not look that great. Then you can just undo, restart, and and keep uh improvising, working with the AI and getting uh results that will inspire you, not just your students, but will also inspire you to keep uh you know doing the your very best work.

SPEAKER_01:

One of the things that you talked about a lot there is instructional design. Now, a lot of course creators, they're an expert in a topic, but they haven't studied instructional design. They've not become an expert in how do you best convey that information to people. They've they've become an expert in their audience and they've tried it in a number of ways and they've like improved at it, but they haven't studied this formally at all. And I've had a couple of instructional designers on the on the podcast on the podcast. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, I'd like to learn a little bit more about that, then uh I'm gonna find uh an episode we did with Mariana Pena, who uh has done some great work in this space, and I'll give you the the episode number of that. So that's episode 113 from December 7th, 2023, called Course Designers Increase Course Retention, Grow Your Vision. But could you give us some breakdown of that today? Could you explain what the concept of instructional design is for people who don't know it, and then we'll can kind of start to get into some of the details of how it works.

SPEAKER_00:

The instructional design is this uh directed experience that we were saying about uh about learning. Uh learning is uh it doesn't happen by accident. It will not happen simply by consuming some content or throwing some content at students. Uh when you it's like a movie, when you direct uh the sequences of uh experiences, you can create feelings, emotions, get people into the right state of learning, you can create contradictions, you can it's a learning is a it's a struggle. It doesn't happen uh uh upon you. The students have to engage with the content, have to engage with their peers, and this is at the core of instructional design. There are numerous theories of instructional design, uh of instructional design, and it's uh uh good great professors, great teachers who might know their subject matter uh uh by heart, in most cases they stumble or they use some of these uh uh um uh instructional design methodologies instinctively because through experience they understand what works and and what not. But it always helps to have uh you know some kind of guidance and some kind of framework for employing such things. In in uh settings where you can afford to have an instructional designer by your side, it's great. If you are a big enterprise, if you have like an LD department, you can get a couple of people who can who usually work along with the subject matter expert. They have to become, to some extent, experts of the topic themselves, so they can then uh start using their instructional design principles to create these little sequences that might uh that might work best. And different instructional design methodologies uh work differently for uh for every person. Like it's not that we all learn the same way. We have visual learners and we have haptic learners and we have people who prefer to watch video, let's say, or people who just prefer to study something. Which also this is also where uh AI can help you now transpose your material into different forms of media so that uh people can uh can use what is best for them or what is best for them at that particular time, because uh not always you want to do the same uh the same kinds of things. So, this instructional design layer it's something that we brought within uh Learn Wolves. So it it helps obviously to have a kind of sense that you need this some kind of instructional design assistance. But within our authoring environment, within our ebook, for example, you can't start getting some principle of instructional design within your courses. The example I mentioned before about assessments, for example, getting automated assessments. I mentioned the BLUE methodology. The BLUE taxonomy uh is uh is effectively a way of categorizing the types different types of knowledge, whether it's road memorization, all the way to understanding something, recalling something, and then understanding something, and then being able to analyze it, and then being able to apply a piece of knowledge. So this is not just create 100 different kinds of questions for me, it's create questions that have different kinds of difficulty, but also address different kinds of skills for people. So that's one example where we kind of introduce an instructional design uh method within a tool that helps you be very, very productive. But you also understand uh about that. It's also the same thing can be done about a piece of knowledge. So the Socratic method is one very basic uh method, but you you can also uh get uh uh uh different uh different kinds of uh uh uh other instructional design theories to to employ within your uh within your courses. Uh so which means that there will be a different kind of introduction in the beginning and then a different kind of presentation of the content and then different kind of uh of assessment of the content.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So if somebody wanted to learn more about instructional design, are there any resources that you would point them to that are kind of that beginner level? Is there stuff on your site, or is there any kind of uh books or courses about that that you recommend?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh obviously, this is like a people can study, can do master's whole master's or whole degrees about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Just the the little one, the little get started version.

SPEAKER_00:

What what I can what we have done and we are what we are sharing on on our site is uh a framework for using prompt engineering and instructional design, precisely implementing instructional design methodology. So, this is where we are showing how you can start uh adapting uh AI to all the things that you might need as an instructional designer. From uh ideating about your course and how you create your content, how you evaluate your content and all these things. So, this is something that people can uh can head over to our to our website and let me just find the name for the uh for this uh for this resource uh to share with your uh with your audience. I don't have it here now, but uh I'll can I can share to you uh right away. So uh our resource uh is called the five-layer framework for instructional design. So this is uh this uh helps you, it gives you the structure. I can share the link here with you in the chat so you can share it with your audience. Uh this uh framework has uh active hands-on uh applications of instructional design uh using AI, starting from understanding your domain, so how you can start exploring the things that you want to teach with producing the learning activities, building the learning material, uh building the instructional plan, so how you sequence these different learning uh learning uh objects, and also different tools that you can use for productivity and uh and creativity. So that's something that um uh that people can uh very uh easily and very hands-on, they can start implementing right away. Or by using the platform and starting creating, using the Learn Worlds platform and starting to create online courses, they will be exposed because for for every uh you know, for every little paragraph that they write or they copy paste, they get all these, they just right-click and they get all these affordances and all these uh options that they can uh tinker with and uh can start creating things that are more more elaborate and uh and more guided.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. Okay. So uh did you put that link in the in the chat already?

SPEAKER_00:

It's called the five layers of AI expertise for instructional designers. So this is uh how you can uh very easily uh start employing uh instructional design methodologies on a in a hands-on uh way and uh in a non-threatening or non-scary way.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. All right, perfect. So what we'll do, we'll put that link in the uh the comments or in the um show notes if you're listening to us as an audio podcast, and um you can download that with from there. Okay, so we've covered some ways that you can use AI uh specifically in your platform in order to be able to create a better experience for people. And we've talked about the idea of um instructional design. What's your your background, I believe you said was like you got a PhD in uh something around education. Could you kind of talk us through a little bit about how that's kind of affected your philosophy of like what you're trying to build?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, it definitely has. Like my background is uh uh I have a PhD in computer assisted assessment, so which is like a one, I guess, sub-topic of uh educational technology is how to use effectively computerized testing. It was called uh back then how to do all these online assessments and questionnaires and uh and uh test people, assess their knowledge or other psychometric um uh parameters of their behavior, so uh of their of their personality. Uh, with uh my two co-founders, uh we go way back. We start we built effectively our first learning management system back in 1999, more than 25 years ago. So the the roots of the of Learn Worlds as a business are academic and scientific. This is how we started by creating different uh e-learning applications, publishing papers, participating in in research projects. So I think it helps us that we brought all this scientific approach to the business as well. Uh obviously, the business doesn't work on an academic level. It has to bring money to people, it has to be very efficient and very effective. So, in many cases, we have to put the scientist on the backseat and use uh uh you know the bring the product that the market and the customers demand and adapt to the market needs, but we always have at the at the back of our mind the solid science principles and the learner experience. When we started designing platforms, designing the what effect eventually became Learn Wolf back in uh 2011, we were very dissatisfied by the state of e-learning out there, the kind of platforms that people had at their hands that were really undervaluing the learner experiences. Most of these LMSs back then they wanted to make HR happy, you know, to have all the records and to have the boss happy, but they didn't really pay any attention to what was the learner experience. So there was really a big disconnect by the quality of the digital experiences that people had in their normal lives, playing with digital with gaming devices, you know, and the iPhones and the iPads and everything else. In learning seemed like in a corporate setting or in an enterprise setting, seemed to be five or ten years back. It was usually a very boring and underwhelming experience. And this is how we started bringing our own expertise into a platform. And uh I know that it will sound kind of cheesy, but we wanted to democratize education. Only the big companies or the big universities or the big MOOCs back then had the possibility of creating uh uh large-scale, high-quality e-learning experiences. What we wanted is to bring this experience at the hand of every course creator so that every creator can create their own amazing Coursera, little Coursera, you know, or their own Udemy or their own academy, and share with the world their own expertise, whatever, whatever niche they were they were in, to be able to create, to be in control of their own content and also be in control of their own audience. So to this day, uh because with with my co-founders we have uh the similar uh we were studying together and uh and uh doing science together, we brought these um we bring still with us this uh this expertise. We we are probably the only major course platforms that that is run by people who you know have PhDs in uh in ed tech and uh uh have been uh using this kind of of principles as uh uh lights for uh for the way ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

And how much do you think when you're building the platform about the process of selling the courses, is that something that you guys consider at all when you're actually building out the features and what you're kind of focused on?

SPEAKER_00:

Of course. I think we we didn't consider it in the first couple of years. But then once we started having real customers, we understood that what you are making, like the quality of your course, is not very important unless you are able to distribute and sell your online courses. So that's one of the instances that I mentioned where we put the scientist in the backseat and we started learning aggressively from the market, like how people sell, what are the predominant business models, what are the emerging business models? Like we've seen people launching in initially, you know that, selling courses as one-off, and then uh starting to wanting to sell bundles of courses and then going into memberships and subscriptions and recurring revenue, and they're starting adding live classes and then creating whole learning projects and uh learning paths and all these things. We evolved along with the market. So now we consider uh one of our superpowers is the extent of our customer base. Right now we have more than 12,000 uh customers out there. So we are learning from the very fast from them. We are uh implementing our uh scientific method for analyzing the learnings from the market and uh and uh being very, very fast in adapting to the to the needs that we see out there and even anticipating and innovating in some cases and bringing in features that we that we want. So uh we couldn't have been in this place unless we were marrying in a very equitable way the uh the scientific background of the platform with a very practical uh entrepreneurial approach of what is the best possible funnel that you can build, what is the best uh way to organize your landing pages, your checkout pages, your sales pages, so that you can also maximize revenue. I unless you have a sustainable growing business, you cannot fund your uh you know your your course creation. It otherwise it would be just a just a hobby, just a noble endeavor. But also you you have to sell. We we are great at that.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. And what have you learned about that? What is it that you what are some of the features that you've built that you found were very in demand that people were really after and that have made a difference in sales?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh the one that's something that we started doing quite early in the platform, but it it remains one of the most uh uh important uh uh parts of the platform is the customer-facing pages, whether it's the course catalog, the landing pages, the single-click checkout pages, because people now expect to have you know a very easy checkout experience. We have uh uh we are we are using all the UI, UX um uh uh innovations, I guess, and best practices from uh from across the industry so that people can have a very seamless experience when they're purchasing online, whether they're doing it through mobile, whether they're doing it through through different browsers. So it's not just the content, but also the packaging of the online courses, the perception that somebody uh has when they visit uh a course catalog or a course landing page, and how easy it is for them to understand what the content is about and to really, with uh just a couple of clicks add their uh you know the credit card details or anything else and have a fast checkout experience. This is something that is um that is very important on the e-commerce uh side of uh of things. And uh uh but also once you start scaling, because uh obviously there are some course creators in your audience that might be just starting out, and there might be others who are running schools with uh tens or even hundreds of thousands of uh of users. This management of such a large-scale school is extremely important. So we are very proud, and our customers really appreciate the scalability that comes along with the learnables like plat with a platform like learnable, where you can automate lots of things, where you can set up uh automations about what happens when people sign up to a course, or what happens when they complete a course, what happens when they complete a certification, what happens when uh they go to complete um uh a learning path, and then you need to guide them to a different kind of uh uh of experience. This part can be extremely important because we know that school some school owners they run a platform, uh an academy by themselves or with a very small team, and they can use all the help they can get. So if we can become their powerhouse, their CRM, the platform that does all the logistics, all the back-end uh grant work, again, we free up space for them to do the things where they're that they're really good at, which is enhancing their personal brand, connecting with their students, becoming the best at their job and uh and creating the best possible content that they can. So these things, the customer-facing presentation for initially launching your school and bringing in your your your customers and creating there uh a nice uh self-serve commercial engine on top of your courses, uh, but also working a lot on the back end so that we can take all the the grand work away from uh from creators. These have been uh quite uh I guess uh very hot uh things that we have developed helping our our our audience base.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, that's extraordinary. I love that. So if people are interested in learning more about Learn Worlds, then the website is just learnworlds.com. Uh we've got that guide that you're very kindly linking us to, and we'll put that in the the comments and the description and the show notes. So wherever you're listening to this, you can click and just access that that guide. Is there anything else you want to point people to if they're if they've been interested in what you've got to say today?

SPEAKER_00:

I think uh just visiting our website will give them a good sense of the things that we produce and uh how they can get in touch with us. They can always start a free trial with learn walls, no credit cards, no strings attached. That just go in and play around and see if some of the things that I've said might resonate with you and uh uh uh the kind of uh let's say courses or experiences that you could create. Uh so this could be a nice challenge for people to see uh you know to test me on the on the things that that I'm saying and see how like what things they could get out in just a few clicks out of Learn Wolves. And also, uh we are extremely proud about the things that we learn from our customers and how we share them with the community. So if you just go to our website and to our resources side, you will not just find this five-layers AI framework that can make you sort of a uh a fast-track instructional designer, but lots of different playbooks, lots of different uh guides uh that either we are building in internally with our in-house experts or things, best practices and tips and tricks that we learn from uh some of the best of the trade, obviously, that uh that are working with LearnWorlds, and we're always happy to share with the community. So I believe right that right now, let's say our academic background and the things that we have been doing in the past is far less important than the things that we are learning from uh our thousands of customers out there, some of them extremely successful. It's like a uh like a master's or a PhD every other month with all the innovation and the evolution we see out there. And we are very proud that we're able to abstract this, learn from that, and incorporate in the platform in ways that give more options to our users. Like they are they realize things, they find new business models that they want to test, they find new learning units, new types of media that they want to test. I I believe that we have become a very effective conduit in learning from the from the market uh with uh sound engineering and sound instructional design and giving options to people to create the best possible school that they can and share as much as they can. That's our uh our uh objective here.

SPEAKER_01:

Beautiful. All right. So if you thought that sounded useful, go check it out. You can check out learnworlds.com and obviously we'll include the link for that uh resource about instructional design as well. Panos, thanks so much for coming on today. Really, really appreciate your time and you sharing your wisdom.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, John. No, uh not much wisdom, I guess, but thanks, John, for having me. I hope that some of the things I I share there will uh people will find inspiring, or you know, they will give it a try.

SPEAKER_01:

Wonderful. Thank you so much. And as always, thank you so much for listening. If you found this uh uh episode useful, make sure you subscribe so you get future episodes and go check out that episode that I mentioned with Mariana Pena, which was episode 113 from December 7th, 2023. And there's got a whole load more about uh instructional design in there as well. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll catch you next time.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks a lot.