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The Art of Selling Online Courses
The Art of Selling Online Courses is all about online courses.
The goal of this podcast is to share winning strategies and secret hacks from top performers in the online course industry. We are interviewing successful business owners, asking them questions on how they got to the point where they are right now, and checking how their ideas can help you improve your online course!
The Art of Selling Online Courses
224 How I Built a 4,000+ Student Business (What Worked)
š„ Add 30% to your revenue with order bumps in 3 simple steps š
https://funnels.datadrivenmarketing.co/order-bump-blueprint
Kate Bee has helped over 4,000 women quit drinking through her online course The Sober School. In this episode we get into how she built her business, what's working in her funnel right now, and why 52% of her students go on to join her membership.
Kate started out as a BBC journalist and began writing an anonymous blog about her own journey with alcohol. That turned into a coaching business that now helps women stop drinking without the shame, labels, or deprivation that often comes with traditional approaches.
We talk about her lead magnet the Wine O'Clock Survival Guide and why it works so well for her audience. We get into her Ā£47 mini course called the Sober Reset and how 12% of those buyers convert to her main programme Getting Unstuck. And we discuss why her students stick around in her membership the Stay Sober Club.
Kate also shares how she thinks about selling transformation instead of information, why she focuses on making her students feel truly seen, and how she's built a community on Mighty Networks that people genuinely don't want to leave.
š Check out Kate's work at https://thesoberschool.com
š Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesoberschool
#OnlineCourses #SalesFunnels #CourseCreators #DigitalMarketing
š¤ Get In Touch
If you'd like to talk more about how you can grow your course business, email me at john@datadrivenmarketing.
People who do buy that mini product, when I then offer them my main product, 12% of them will go on and buy that main product. 52% of people who take the course then go and transition into the membership. We had about a 35% conversion there. Some feedback I get often from people is they say, you were talking, you were describing exactly me. The things that I didn't think anyone else did. It's like those little truth moments that makes them feel really steam, and then, like you're saying, if they feel recognized, they just automatically trust you more to have a solution. A lot of the time, the reason people tell me they're gonna move over, is because they want to stay with their cohort, their community, their friends that they're gonna be people want transformation, feed and connection after that.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, and welcome to the art of selling online courses. We hit their winning strategies and secret acts, top format in the online courses. My name's John Ensbert, and today's guest is Kate B. Now Kate is the founder of the Sober School. It's a coaching platform that helps women stop drinking, start living without shame, without labels, without deprivation. A former BBC journalist and certified life coach, Kate now empowers women across the globe to navigate alcohol-free living with confidence and joy. Her flagship program, Getting Unstart, has supported more than 4,000 women to transform their relationship with alcohol. Today we're going to be talking about Kate's business, how she's grown it. Why no one really wants to buy an online course and what you should focus on instead, how she's built an amazing community and why she hires her students. Kate, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_00:So talk us through just a little bit more detail like who is it that you're helping with your courses?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. My typical student is a woman in her mid-50s. She's uh smart, she's educated, she probably drank a lot at university and then drank to cope with motherhood. And now she's in this midlife crush where she still has kids at home, but she's got aging parents and quite a responsible job. Alcohol has always been the thing that's helped her cope. Only now it seems to be causing more problems than it's worth. And um, that sounds tough. It is a really tough place to be. And I think because her life is nothing like the cliched stereotype of an alcoholic, she just doesn't know if she's got a problem and what to do about it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. How did you start this? How come you started working with this audience and like running this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, the sober school came about because of my own experience. I was always uh I was gonna say too good at drinking alcohol.
SPEAKER_00:But we would just I've got this nailed. I am on it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right from the word go, I was always the person who uh drank too much at a party, never just stopped at one or two drinks. And then in my twenties, that moved from drinking socially to actually just drinking at home, drinking after work, and I'm feeling kind of quite confused about my relationship with alcohol. So I I really struggled with what to do myself. And then eventually, when I figured out, okay, I I do need to stop drinking, but I can do it without AA meetings because they they don't resonate for me either, not my cup of tea. After that, I felt like, well, God, if someone had just shown me or just told me that it was possible to stop drinking and for it not to dominate your whole life. Um I'm not walking around today t telling people I'm a recovering alcoholic. It's just something I used to do. I used to drink. A bit like some people used to smoke, but they're not still defined by it.
SPEAKER_00:So Yeah, no one's called a smoke a holic when they stop smoking, are they? That's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I actually use that example with my students all the time. People don't introduce themselves as recovering nicotine holics. It's just what they did. So, yeah, it was really my personal experience that got me thinking, I think there is a gap here. And as part of my journey, I used to write a blog, an anonymous blog called The Sober Journalist, which was just about my experience. It was one of those free WordPress blogs. And people did follow me.
SPEAKER_00:Journalists also like to drink.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's absolutely part of our culture. Um, yeah, I really think it's is part of the industry. Kind of work hard, play hard. You know, my first news editor would always sort of lament the days when you could drink and smoke in the office. I was like, oh, we don't do either now. So yeah, I guess all of that is a long-winded way of saying I eventually realized through writing this anonymous blog that I wasn't the only person out there feeling this way. And I had imagined when I'd started that I would be working with other people just like me, you stopping around the age of 30. But maybe I'm just an old soul because I've always attracted a much older client. They've always been 50-ish. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:There's something, and this is not to do with um sobriety, but in the online course space, a lot of the people that we work with, and a lot of people who come on the podcast, their audience is in their 50s and 60s. Not all of them by any means, but but a lot, like more than way more than half. I would say like 70%, maybe 80, something in that kind of region. Um, people, maybe even slightly older, like at the kind of retirement age, so then it's like maybe 50s, but definitely sixties. And it's a lot of people. Um this is different to yours, right? But a lot of people who they're reaching retirement and they want to start up a hobby. And so then they're learn they they're paying for the online course to learn to play the banjo or the guitar or the piano or whatever. So lots of musical stuff, but then languages as well, and tile making. We had someone on the other day who like teaches uh um uh how to make mosaics, and it's like a lot of these people all saying that same kind of age range. And I wonder, I just I don't know, right? It's just it's just throwing this out there as an idea, that maybe it's almost like that that audience is more ready for buying online courses, and then the percentage of those who found you uh, you know, or maybe it's there are more people at that age who are really getting around to thinking about giving up drinking. You know, people in their 30s are like, no Kate, I am totally fine with my with my drinking. I'm gonna keep going. Thank you very much. Um Did you have you ever figured it out? Have you ever like had any hints as to, besides being an old soul, as to like why that audience is the one who you work with?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think it could be two things. Uh first of all, yes, I I have you know other business friends who seem to serve slightly older people. And I I don't know what that is about. Maybe there's more appetite for learning, for taking courses, um, in in a slightly older demographic. But when it comes to drinking, when you look at the problematic drinking patterns, certainly in the UK, we know kind of Gen Z, people in their 20s, they are not drinking anywhere near the levels that I hear this.
SPEAKER_00:My age used to. I I'm so confused. I hear they're not drinking and they're not having sex, and I'm just like, guys, I I've at least half of that you should be doing.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What's happened? Fascinating. I don't know. Um, I mean, maybe it's knowing that everything they do seems to be get put online or something like that. I mean, you think of all the mistakes we made that don't exist digitally, thank goodness. Um so I think it's possibly that yeah, people in their 20s, 30s aren't drinking so much. Um, you know, I'm 42, women my age still are drinking a bit too much, but truly 50 plus, that is where the the real drinking problems are. And you wouldn't know that if you watched the news because when we talk about binge drinking, we're we're always shown you know videos of teenagers staggering around city centres, and it's not that, it's it's middle class women at home who are binge drinkers.
SPEAKER_00:Who are just like, I'll just have another bottle of wine tonight or something like this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And what's for you for the course business, what's the main driver of your audience? Is it I know you've got a decent sized Instagram audience, is it that or is it is it ads, or where's been the main source for you?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think over the past few years it's been Google Ads. Um because you're capturing people then as they are literally looking for help, as they are typing something relevant into the search bar. So Google Ads have worked really well for me for about three or four years. This year, we're starting to see you know the cost per lead go up quite substantially. I've noticed the way that um ads are displayed on Google search is changing. So I don't know if that will be the future for me. Um but yeah, organically, I'd say I still get people through Google search and yes, Instagram as well, for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, Google search just straight to your website, like through SEO.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. What's uh how do you know what your website traffic is? Like how many viewers you get a month?
SPEAKER_01:Um I don't actually.
SPEAKER_00:No, okay, okay, fine. I I think in numbers mostly. Like most course creators I talk to, they're like, oh, I hated maths at school and I hate spreadsheets, and I just I'm quite creative, you know. And my whole team, we're all like ex, you know, mathematicians, engineers, uh scientists, what have you, all like just thinking thinking numbers and spreadsheets from the beginning. Um but I totally understand. So, okay, so you've got people coming in through search traffic and through Google ads. What kinds of what kind of terms are people searching for that are then leading them to you through either one of those?
SPEAKER_01:I think the number one term is how to quit drinking alcohol. But then there's also stuff like how to stop drinking, which is a different term. Um I an alcoholic. Um I also used to run ads if people search for AA meetings, but recently I've stopped that because I could see that wasn't converting as well, and I think that's a different type of person. Um yeah, that specific search phrase is popular.
SPEAKER_00:And then where do you point them? What's the next step?
SPEAKER_01:So at the moment, all the Google ad traffic goes towards uh a landing page which advertises a wine o'clock survival guide. This has been my lead magnet for forever. Um and the the wine o'clock survival guide is about trying to give them a quick win for tonight. Um, like how to stop drinking tonight.
SPEAKER_00:That's clever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because I can't otherwise it's very hard for me to to create a win for somebody. Um and it has five strategies in and you know, a bit of bump about me and and some other stuff. So yeah, on for for ads, that's always been the the lead magnet that's worked the best. I do have another lead magnet that works well on Instagram for a pep talk, but that seems to go down better with people who already know me. And if they're thinking about drinking, they might download this pep talk to like not drink that night.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. Okay, this is really clever. I like this. So it's like because part of the idea, the the philosophy with lead magnets is you want something that's useful but incomplete. So people are like, oh, that's great. That that really helped me, but I still need more. So you don't want to be trying to solve the whole problem. Well, this is just solving tonight. And then you can then help them with your main programme with like, okay, what's what about tomorrow? What about this week, the month, this year? You know, how do you kind of uh uh try and make this more of a habit, an identity, uh, a way that you change your entire lifestyle? That really makes a lot of sense. Do you happen to know what conversion rate you get on that page, like how many people opt in? Or should I stop asking you numbers and and not be mean?
SPEAKER_01:Um it really varies. When I run, I should also say that I've run Facebook ads and we had about a 35% conversion on the wine o'clock page there.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But for Google, it's actually a lot lower. It was um 20% for a while, and more recently it's crept down to nearer 15, like 14%.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, which is a which is a problem. Um and I but it's always been lower with Google ads, and I don't know whether part of that is because I only work with women, and maybe some guys land on the page and then they see some of the branding, some of the style, and think, oh. Uh whereas with Facebook you can exclude men right out the gate. So potentially that's it.
SPEAKER_00:That does make sense, doesn't it? Yeah, that you might still be catching the the guys and you're still paying for them, but then you need something in the ad saying bracket not for men or something. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we have like ladies, how to quit drinking. But I don't know what it is with you guys. Maybe you don't read. Um they still click on it.
SPEAKER_00:That's not not that bright, you know. What can you do? Um Okay. So people sign up there for that lead magnet, ideally, and then then what happens next?
SPEAKER_01:So at the moment, what we're doing is on the thank you page, they the thank you page says, like, great, you know, your wine o'clock survival guide is gonna be in your inbox in in two minutes. Um but like in the meantime, hey, here's something else that you might like. And that something else is a seven-day mini product called the Sober Reset. And the promise with that is, well, actually, the page makes quite a few promises. Because I'm trying to pull in someone, my like my potential avatar, who is right at the start of her journey, who doesn't really want to stop drinking, even though that's what she's searching for. She wants some kind of reset, maybe something that keeps moderation on the table or just drinking less. Um, and she's probably got lots of hang-ups about the fact that she's hanging out on the sober school website anyway. So this product is actually like a little kind of package to try and help her feel better and feel clearer. And um, yeah, and that's what I'm trying to get her to buy. Because what I found is that people who do buy that mini product, when I then offer them my main product, they convert like 12% of them will go on and buy that main product, um, which is higher than a sort of typical coldly just coming into my coming into my world.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. 12% of those people is fantastic. So you kind of you know if if you can get someone, or you can get the kind of person who will buy this, or you get someone to buy this, uh, whichever way around it is, you've got a high percentage of them who will buy the the main product afterwards. Okay, that's great. So what kind of um return on ad spend are you getting on this um at the moment?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, my goal is to be I would love to have enough sales from the sober reset to pay for the ad costs. Because otherwise what I'm finding is I go into a launch and I'm already like in debt to my ads on quite a quite a big level, and then then it it feels to me as if there's quite a lot of pressure on the launch. So yeah, I thought, God, wouldn't it be just amazing if the ads could pay for themselves and warm these people up nicely? In in October for a few weeks, I really thought I'd nailed it. I was, you know, putting 400 pounds into Facebook ads and getting 400 pounds back in sales. Um but in November and this month, it things have gone a bit sort of wonky again, and I'm probably getting about uh, you know, for every pound I put in, I get 50p back.
SPEAKER_00:In what time frame? That's straight away, I guess, isn't it? That 50p back.
SPEAKER_01:Um I just measure each week what I've spent and how many sales I've got. But actually, there is a kind of 14-day window. So you're right, someone who opts in, they will get a series of emails about it, even if they don't take action straight away. So I guess sometimes the the return on investment is a bit delayed. Um you're never quite sure, oh, when did that person join the list and when did they buy? Or I'm I'm not tracking that. Perhaps I should do.
SPEAKER_00:Do you have anything else that you're selling them during that period? Do you have I don't think you have any order bumps, do you? Do you have any upsells or do you have any other offers during that 14 days?
SPEAKER_01:No no. All the only other thing they'll get during that period is perhaps some blog content from me, sort of nurture content. Because then when I do get towards a launch for my main product, I will actually either turn the ads off or um reduce the the email sequence that's pushing them towards that mini product. Because once we get into a main launch, I want them to be focused on that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So there's no there's no upsell if they buy the$47 product or anything else?
SPEAKER_01:No. So in a perfect world, here is what would happen. They'd buy the mini product, and then at the end of the mini product, they get into this place where they think, gosh, I love Kate, I love the sober school, I'm now completely ready to take her main course. Oh, let me go and join that right away. And so if I was in a position where I could run that main course more on an evergreen basis or mainly or perhaps a monthly basis, I think that would be really slick.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um but I'm just not.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. How much does the main course cost?
SPEAKER_01:So that'sĀ£497.
SPEAKER_00:When it's discounted or full um is that full price?
SPEAKER_01:I don't give them a discount.
SPEAKER_00:But Oh, because you're doing it as like a launch. It's like it's only available at this this time, right? Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And do you sell anything else? Do you have any other courses, any other programs, any other support?
SPEAKER_01:I do have a back-end membership, but that's only available to people once they've bought the 497 program.
SPEAKER_02:Got it.
SPEAKER_01:So if you're thinking about those mini course people, they are in a little bit of limbo, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00:Um I've got the solution in terms of the a structure of this is what you do in exactly your situation to make. This work. The bit that you might have then uncertainty with or tell me it won't work is because it doesn't fit with your product ladder at the moment. But the standard way of solving this problem, and it's very standard, this is exactly how like all course creators who are running ads successfully solve this problem, is to have other things that people can buy. So three places. One is to have an order bump of something that goes with that mini the mini course. A second one is to have an upsell straight away afterwards to something maybe a little bit bigger. And the third one is at the end of your to have your um welcome sequence be only partly promoting that$47 guide. But if someone has signed up to it, then transition to promoting something else that's more expensive, something around the 99 to 199 kind of price range. If you had products that fitted in there, and I know that, you know, I don't know your audience, I don't know the the transition between one product and another and how you might make that and what there would be. But just from a pure business marketing point of view, if you had those and you had something that that fitted, that converted, um, it would basically solve your problem and you'd be able to like break even with your ads and um the whole thing would work. And if if the ads run really well like they did in September, then you would be making 2x on your ad spend. And if they run less well, you'd be making about 1X still. Then when you do your launch, it would it would sort it out. Just putting aside in case you've got any like reservations straight away about products, does that does that make sense from a kind of marketing point of view, business point of view?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, from a kind of um paper exercise, yeah, that does make sense. And and actually that is what I've seen other people doing. Uh there needs to be a slightly bigger, a slightly bigger offer and a little bit closer to that that first action. Um it makes good sense.
SPEAKER_00:But I'll give you kind of the conversion percentages that we tend to see, like so you get an idea of how come this works. Um the order bump would typically, you're selling aĀ£47 uh course would typically have something else at about theĀ£37,Ā£27,Ā£47, something in that kind of region, similar-ish price to that main product. And that would typically convert, if you get a really good fit of the right kind of product that fits with what you're offering and you get the right text and all of those things, right? Somewhere between 30 and 60% of people would get it. So that would straightaway add on, let's say it was, let's say it was 50% at converted debt, that gives you, and it was at$37, that gives you about an extra 40% revenue on top of what you're already getting. We're trying to double it to get you because to go from a 0.5x ROAS to go to a 1x ROAS, you know, to get all your money back. So we want to double it. Well, that's added 40%. Then the upsell is typically something that would be about the 99 pound mark, maybe 149, maybe 79, but something in that kind of ballpark when it's got a discount, you know, that you felt was worth this at that price point and that was really uh helpful for people and that they wanted, you know, there was a good product market fit and all of those kind of things. Like that would need figuring out. And that might convert at something between 10 and 25%. So if that's now twice the price of your original offer, but only converting at 20%, then you're looking at another 40%. So you're now at 80% extra revenue. If you then had a welcome sequence that finished, that was really, really good quality welcome sequence, got people to buy into your brand, everyone's like, yeah, Kate's my woman, this is fantastic, I want the full program, whatever, then you would have an upsell to something else around the kind of like$199 mark-ish. That might also, if possible, if if if there are other products that could fit in these places that also had an order bump and then upsell them, have you? And then that might convert at something in the kind of 5% region. And between all of those, you're now looking at basically you've kind of filled in that gap. You're making within two weeks, you're making all of your money back. Now, I don't know your audience, but I don't know what those products could be. But what I do know is that almost all course creators who tell me, no, there's nothing else I could put in there, we eventually find something. So I would like to just imbue you with the possibility of like, even if your instinct is, no, John, that's not possible, that actually, yes, that is possible, even though you don't necessarily know, even if you don't know what that is, just so that you don't start with a closed mind and go, that's lovely, but that's not going to work for me. If you start with the idea of like, hmm, how could that work for me? Then it becomes possible to figure it out. And then you can start looking at, well, what's anybody else doing? And how do they make it work? And what kind of products have they got? Oh, I never thought of that. Oh, I wonder if I could do something. And that's now you've got the possibility of creating something that actually it works for you, it works for your audience, it works for ads. It's like everyone's a winner, you know. Um what's your emotional reaction to that? Do you are you are you feeling closed up or are you feeling hopeful, or how does that make you feel?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I I absolutely understand the logic of it, of what you're saying. Yeah. I think a lot of the time I feel a bit of a tension between the kind of marketer side of my brain and the coach and the this is what I I know from 10 years of doing this really helps these women. This is what I want them to to experience. I think I guess a little like a sticking point for me that I would have to think about is I know that ultimately there aren't many small products that I can offer people because the work we do, I don't know, I say we, because it's like me and a small team, the work we do at the sober school is transformational because we're working with people for a bit longer to like really challenge their thinking. And so with my smaller products, an issue I've always had is like, well, what what can I do for them? And the sober reset, theĀ£47 product, I haven't really felt challenged with that. Like, what can I offer forĀ£47? So perhaps that's where I need to spend more time is thinking about what can I offer that isn't the full shebang but still delivers change.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what I what I would love is as a minimum, if we finish this this conversation, with you going from what can I offer forĀ£47, like at that kind of price point, to changing that question to, hmm, what can I offer at that price point? And if you just can make that change, right? From like feeling frustrated about it to feeling like curious about it, then I think on its own you'll be able to get there, right? I think there's more. Like I'm gonna I'm gonna connect you with Yosip after this, who's like our head of funnel strategy. He's a wizard at this stuff and he's helping people with this all the time. And he'll like help you over email. He'll kind of give you some some tips and and record you a video about it. It's uh we've got blog, we've got um lead magnety listening who is interested in this, who's like, oh, I want to do an order bump. We've got something called the order bump blueprint. You can get that from data drivenmarketing.co slash resources, and that's got some ideas in there, I believe, on order bumps. And I think if you go to datadrivenmarketing.co slash, it's either order bump or order dash bump. I'm just checking it now. Um no, it's neither of those. I don't know what it is. Uh I'll see if I can figure that one out. Then um then I I think we've got another resource specifically about that. We've got one around upsells as well, which is at data drivenmarketing.co slash upsell. Um and that's a sales page template, not how to come up with ideas for the product. Um we've got some podcast episodes about these as well. I'm gonna find those. Um, but like this is doable. Like one of the this is one of our jobs, right, when we're helping course creators with this, is like, what have you ever sold that could fit here? What could you sell? What other products have people had? So I want as as you as you're listening to this, dear listener, I want you to to take hope in the fact that this is doable. If you are in the same place as Kate, um where she's trying to figure out like, uh, just what could work there, what makes makes sense. It's like this is always doable. You know, we've always managed to do it as people. It's just a case of figuring it out for you. Um podcast episodes as well for order bump. Um so episode 181 is a really good one about order bumps. And um episode 183 is a good one about upsells as well. Okay. Kate, I want to jump back into some of the stuff that I know you are running really well about the way that you're running your business. Can you talk to me about this? Is I'm gonna quote you back to you here, right? And I want you to just kind of talk us through this. You said, I don't believe anyone wants to buy an online course. You might think your course is amazing, but to someone else, getting through your hundred modules is just another thing on their to-do list. And in this world of AI and Chat GPT, information isn't that important anymore. People want transformation, ease, and connection. You have to sell that. I a hundred percent agree with you. I think this is fantastic. I think you said it very eloquently. Your journalism background comes through fantastically. Um, can you talk us through that? Like, how did you come to this conclusion?
SPEAKER_01:I came to it because I definitely made that mistake of thinking, oh my god, I've just got to talk about my course and how many um modules it has and where it lives and what you get and what time the calls are, because all of that I have put so much effort into thinking about and planning. Yep. That seems very interesting to me. Um I quickly realized no one cares. Um, they just don't care. And actually, when you think about like I think about my personal experience of nowadays, my biggest struggle all the time is I want to learn stuff, but I can't really be bothered to learn it. Like I buy books and I only read half of them. I buy courses and I don't do them. So in order for me to complete on something, I have to be very invested in the transformation. And I think when people are invested in that transformation, it's probably because they're either in a place of real pain, so they're trying to move away from pain, or they're being drawn to the pleasure because they perceive that there's you know something really good waiting for them. And with my people, it's a little bit of both, but probably mainly pain, to be honest. Uh, they just don't want to be where they are anymore. So I think focusing on that and what a difference it's gonna make and how they're gonna feel, that is more powerful than the practical stuff of what you get.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. One of the things that we do on sales pages, um that I I see almost nobody, I mean, like professional copywriters know to do this, but like very few course creators uh think to do it. It's kind of it's not in the teachable template or you know, whatever someone's using. Is there's two sections. One is pain agitation solution. And so this is where what we do is we start with the pain that the audience is feeling, that the potential customer is feeling. Because if they don't believe that we understand their pain, then why on earth would they believe that we have the solution to it? But on the flip side, if they believe that we understand their pain, if we're able to describe it more accurately, more concisely than they can themselves, then they will automatically think that we've got the solution, even before we've actually presented whatever that solution is. So that's like the first step. That's the pain section. Then the agitation section is somebody actually this this problem that they have, in your case, you know, that they're drinking too much, it is causing more problems in their life than they can probably see. And in ways that they struggle maybe to think about because they can't see the wood for the trees. So they have you can see it because you've talked to 4,000 people, right, that you've helped through your courses. Um, but they can't necessarily see it. So when you bring that up, it makes them feel like, oh my God, you're right. I really need to solve this problem. Like this, I've not just got this problem, I've got this problem that is then causing all these knock-on issues in my whole life. And then you talk about the solution. And now they're like, oh, I you're right, I need this. So that's one section of a sales page. And then another one that's very powerful. We learned this from a copywriter who was doing some training for uh deadline funnel, if you know that software. That uh they had this guy come in and um uh do this training. I forget his name now. I wish I could give him proper attribution. But he talked about future casting. And the idea of this is to show somebody what their life can be like. Now, when you talk about benefits, and most people don't talk about benefits enough, but when you talk about benefits, it's not necessarily bringing to life what their life is going to be like in a few months' time or in six months' time, whatever. So that's what we're trying to do in this section is show them this is potential future you. If you get this, this is how your life could be. And you know that. You actually know that because you've seen clients go through, buy the course, change their life, and it be different now. You know, and you and that comes up in testimonials and it comes up in the benefits. But having a section that is just about that really helps someone to see this is the transformation, this is where I'm I actually could be after I do the work of that 100 modules or ideally less than 100 modules of kind of going through all of this. Um I think that's awesome that you you think about it in that way. For you, how does it affect what you do in selling or or delivering your course?
SPEAKER_01:I think it's about being really specific because so some feedback I get often from people is they say, you know, you were talking and you were describing exactly me, the things that I didn't think anyone else did. So that might be something like worrying about how many empties are in the recycling bin and whether the neighbours have noticed.
SPEAKER_00:That makes it vivid, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Or um worrying that you know their partner has noticed that there is a bottle of wine in one of the cupboards. And because sometimes my typical client does hide a lot of her drinking. So she might be cooking with one glass out on the counter, but have one glass that's also like tucked away somewhere else. And she'd be so mortified if someone else realized that or that she topped her glass up and not topped anyone else's up. It's it's like those little um truth moments that makes them feel really seen. And then, like you're saying, if they feel recognized, then I think they just automatically trust you more to have a solution. Um, and it and it's also about you're painting what life is like now and how how whole and like full your life can be without alcohol.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. I love how you're doing that, how you talk about it. One of the things that you you do really well is that you uh created an excellent community, right? You've created a a really good community around this. How have you done that? What's because it I get the vibe from what you're saying as to like how you psychologically think about it, but like practically then how have you converted that into having that great community?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I I think community is a really big part of what I do because for the women I coach, they are coming in feeling very lonely, um, very ashamed. And this has been very much a private sort of solo journey, and they they truly cannot believe that there are other women out there like them who are successful at work and have got these perfect looking lives, um, but are drinking this much. Like they they just don't believe it. But what is really powerful for them is to go through my course as a cohort, so they're all getting the same lesson at the same time, they are answering some kind of similar prompt, and they are seeing other people um sharing their stories, their experiences, their answers. And we use a platform called Mighty Networks, which is what I have found to be the closest to Facebook, but not Facebook. Because again, I mean, I don't like Facebook myself, and my people really don't like it. They are so worried about being caught out, or what if they went on Facebook and they posted in the wrong place and then all their Facebook friends saw what they were posting, you know. And um and with I don't want to sound like an ambassador for Mighty Networks, there's plenty of problems with that. No, that's fine.
SPEAKER_00:We've had Gina from Mighty Networks on the on the podcast before. So uh if if anyone wants to hear Gina from who started Mighty Networks, she's at uh episode 87. But so carry on, go for it. If you love it, tell people about it.
SPEAKER_01:Um I do love it. I mean it's not a perfect platform uh by any means, but I have just found their app is really good, and that seems to be what clicks for my people when they realize, wow, like I've got this app here, and if I have a question or I'm struggling, I can just type into it and someone is gonna see that. And whether it's a student from the community who might reply, or me or one of my coaches, they know they're kind of gonna be looked after, and that's really, really special for them, and to just kind of get that support at their fingertips. So I think um I I feel like I've spent quite a lot of money on having moderators, having coaches, kind of looking after a community and making sure it's somewhere that people can post anything, but it's still positive and inspiring. That's that just takes a lot of human input. I don't think you can outsource that to AI. But it's worth it because that's what people comment on.
SPEAKER_00:And what's the you've got like a um a a cat a continuation, like a uh program afterwards? How much how much do people pay you for that?
SPEAKER_01:So the I have a membership program. It's called the Stay Sober Club, because my my front end the Getting Unstuck course is very much, hey, come take a break from with me for six weeks and let's see how it goes. Uh but the Stay Sober Club is like mentally that next stage. Oh yeah, I do want to continue. This has been good. And um they can pay eitherĀ£35 a month orĀ£350 for each for the year. And I have a really good, I think it's a good conversion. So I have something like 52% of people who take the course then go and transition into the membership.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that is a good conversion. You are correct. That's really good, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And but you know, a lot of the time the reason people tell me they're gonna move over is because they want to stay with their cohort, their community, their friends that they've made. I'm like, what about me? What about all the amazing things I've just taught you?
SPEAKER_00:Hey. Aren't I fabulous? Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_01:That's fine. So good.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's awesome. And then do people stick around there a long time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I can't remember what the numbers are, but so I have some people who will only stay for a couple of months. Other people will stay for maybe six, nine months. But I have some members in there who are like three or four years sober, but they hang around because they they like the vibe of the community being with women who get it. And and and and yeah, I don't know, maybe my next product should be something for people in longer term sobriety. I I don't know, but I haven't got around to that yet.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. If people are interested. And not necessarily that the listeners of this podcast are necessarily the right fit, but if people want to go just check you out, where can they go?
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. The best place to find me is probably at thesoberschool.com. That's my website. But I am also on social media. I'm on everything at at the sober school.
SPEAKER_00:So perfect. So the sober school or at the sober school on Instagram or wherever else online.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Amazing. Kate, this was wonderful. I love this conversation. I think what you've done is fantastic and obviously helping a lot of people. So something you can really be proud of. Hey.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for coming on. And uh if anyone listening wants to go check out the podcast episodes that I mentioned, then uh hopefully those will be useful as well. Let's call it, let's uh uh end it there. That was wonderful. Thank you.