262 How to Build a Tripwire From Your Main Offer

Get your tripwire product ideas here: 👉🏼 https://datadrivenmarketing.co/tripwire

Derek Callan has been coaching business English for over 22 years, has clocked more than 10,000 hours of in-company training, and has built a YouTube channel with 250,000 subscribers and nearly 10 million views. He is, by any measure, someone who knows his stuff. So what I really wanted to get into with him was the messier side of the journey, figuring out who your real customer is, what they actually want to buy, and how to build a funnel that lines up from first click to paid client.

Derek recently launched a high-ticket one-to-one coaching programme targeting professionals who freeze under pressure, presentations, meetings, the calls that matter. He sold out his founding five spots from a small segment of his email list. We talked through where to go from there, how to price it, and a specific idea around selling a paid assessment as a tripwire that leads cleanly into the main programme.

We also got into what he learned from our Instant Course Sales programme, why mindset is the biggest barrier in language learning, and what it actually looks like to try to align your YouTube content, your lead magnets, and your offers when you have several courses running at once.

Derek is genuinely great to talk to. Warm, thoughtful, honest about what is and isn't working. And the bit near the end about asking his wife to summarise the podcast for him... I will say no more. You will enjoy that part.

Check out Derek's work:
🌐  https://www.derekcallan.com/
▶️ https://www.youtube.com/@derekcallan-englishforpros

Transcript

Meet Derek And His Audience

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I made five places available and I'll I told out I do tend to have a lot of people I think coming into my world through YouTube and then onto my email list that just aren't the right people. That's why I've kinda decided to go a little bit more in deep. Because things have been very broad, it makes sense for me to leave down and have a better idea of who my ideal customers allow welcome to the R selling online course.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

We are here. Derek is a professional English coach based in Insport, Austria. He is the man behind the YouTube channel English for Professional. He's been coaching business English for over 22 years, and it costs more than 10,000 hours of in-company training, delivered directly to non-native professionals at the workplaces, alongside teaching at the management center in the North's professional English coaching in 2004. And then in 2016, after 15 years of delivering in-company training at the North's YouTube channel with the goal of building an online audience and a scalable digital business for each professional anywhere in the world. That channel has now grown to over 250,000 subscribers, nearly 500 videos, and nearly 10 million total views. He's also got a catalog of online courses that he's sold worldwide, and he's now building a high-ticket one-to-one coaching program aimed at the moment's where professionals freeze under pressure. Presentations, meetings, the calls that matter. What Derek's done is he's taken a deep expertise in the niche and turned it into real digital business from an iPhone and a basic mic. Exactly the journey that you're probably on right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Derek, welcome to the show, man. Hey, John, thanks very much. Uh great to be here. Thanks for the invite.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

So talk us through like who is it exactly that you're helping with your courses?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Okay, so basically, working professionals who are, you know, they're working internationally, they need to use English in the workplace, and they struggle because um, for whatever reason, they never had enough English in school, or things are changing in their workplace, they need to be able to perform in English at a higher level. And yeah, they need to speak confidently, they need to be able to make a good impression, and ultimately, what a lot of these people want is to progress in their careers, you know, better jobs, earn better money, and so on.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

And what exact problem are you solving for them? What's the what's the issue that you can help them with?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Well, like there are several different things. I think some of the main things that I try to help people with are performing in meetings. So high stakes, uh important meetings and discussions where they have to show up, they have to express opinions, they have to make positive contributions, and also in other areas like relationship building, so how to master those informal conversations at work, uh with their colleagues, but also with clients, with their bosses, um, other things like yeah, as you mentioned before, like you know, some of the main things meetings, small talk, presentations, um, and just general confidence as well, and having a wider range of vocabulary. So there's there's a lot of different ways that I I help people.

High-Ticket Coaching Launch And Pricing

SPEAKER_02 3:22

How many courses have you got? How many are you uh you got in your kind of catalogue?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Um at the moment I have uh three uh three courses available. So, you know, there have been other courses that have kind of come and gone or that I've you know made combinations of courses, but right now I have three courses that I offer on an evergreen basis.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Okay, cool. And then you're working at the moment on a one-to-one coaching program. What's the planned launch date for that? What's the kind of plan about how that's gonna work?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Uh funny that you ask that because I have already launched it. Oh, excellent news. Yeah, yeah, I've been working on it for a few months. And I recently launched it to a small segment of my email list people who have bought my digital courses before. So my warm list, if you like. And that was a great success, I have to say. So um I made five places available, and all five were taken, so sold out. Nice. And I actually just started yesterday a promotion, an email promotion to the wider list. Um, because I have uh I'm also promoting it to the wider list. I have some capacity, so I'm going to offer another couple of spaces at this kind of special, I'm calling it the founding member rate. And once I get those uh extra couple of clients in, then it will return to its uh full investment. Yeah. And then the goal will be to generate um a constant flow of leads to that particular coaching product.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

And then what's the price point on that? Or what's the found what's the founding one and what's the main price point gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

The founding uh price is twelve hundred dollars, and the full investment is gonna be fifteen hundred and for a 10-week program, which has one weekly uh live session and then additional weekly challenges, kind of uh asynchronous and uh like different tasks, homework tasks to keep people engaged between the sessions.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Okay, cool. My suspicion is that you can uh raise the price on that a good amount. I don't like it's I I'm not in your business, I'm not talking to your audience, right? But like I've helped people launch one-to-one offers for teaching music, and they've been able to charge about a thousand a month. And business English is more important than learning the banjo. Or you're like, and I am like I love I love music, right? I love playing my bass, but I just feel like people would be willing to pay more because it can make them more money back, right? Especially if it's the right people, if it's the people who are a gonna make a bigger deal, gonna you know, close that deal or not gonna look like an idiot or whatever from from learning English, then I would accept that they would be willing to pay more. So therefore, my suspicion is that you can charge more than they can, and at the moment you're charging well, let's think, let's count it as a 1,500 from 10 weeks, that's two and a half months. So that's like 600-ish. Have I done my maths right? Yeah, about six hundred a month. Yeah. Okay. So I reckon you can get that to at least 1200, so at least a thousand, and probably more. Probably more than that.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Well, that's the thing. Uh like what you said, when you have people who are very serious, they're committed, and the results of the program will lead to big things for them, big changes. Then uh, of course, I think people would be willing to make a higher investment. Absolutely. My idea with the uh opening rate, having this kind of special offer for the first clients, is because it's a new program and I want to uh test it and become really good at delivering it, like make it excellent, help people get like uh really good results uh in this space of time. And yeah, the goal would definitely be once it's established, and if I can uh generate enough interest and convert people easily at 1,500, then the next step would definitely be to raise that price. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, yeah. And I think you've got a good chance as well of having ongoing clients after the 10 weeks. You know, they finish the 10 weeks and then they become an ongoing. I don't know if that's what you've already got planned, or what's your thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

I mean, that's what I've been doing for years. I've been very lucky with my I've continued to do face-to-face work here, like at with uh corporate clients uh where I live, and I have some very l loyal clients who just keep rebooking and and rebooking. So the idea is as well, hopefully 10 weeks uh will be just the start. And I would love to have a second program kind of set up, or even like just the bones, the ideas of how this could continue, what's the next logical step after this particular program so that I can increase that um yeah, that AVL, isn't it? Is that the the abbreviation? The acronym? I can never remember. LTV? LTV. What did I say? AVL. Yeah, LTV.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah. There's uh um the lifetime value. LTV or C L T V is lifetime value or customer lifetime value. The other the other ones, uh other the other fun acronyms are CA stack or CAC is customer acquisition cost. And so you often look at what's the cost versus lifetime value. YouTubers don't really have that because you you're not paying extra money to acquire somebody. It's more about are you doing the right tactics? And then uh um AOV is the other one, average order value. That's like how much.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

AOV, that's what I was thinking of. I was getting the mix up. Yeah, but yeah, obviously the LTV, um that's a goal. You know, I want people to stay with me uh as long as they feel that they're getting value and I'm helping them get results. Um yeah, that would be that would be the next step then to have something kind of lined up and ready to go after the 10 weeks.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Here's here's the thing in my experience is if you're the person that your audience goes to to learn about this topic, you can charge a lot more money than everybody else for for helping them one-to-one. Like I've got I I chat about him quite often because he's a friend of mine and we talk about his business quite a lot. Um, but Jack from Banjo Skills, he's he knows people who are much better banjo players than him. Right. And they are only charging like 30 bucks an hour to teach banjo because they're not they're not got the marketing process in place, and they're they're like they're really good and they're in you know, people who play banjo know that they are the best people, but they haven't got a whole marketing system set up for it. But he's got a YouTube channel and he's got an email list, and he knows how to send email promotions because he's gone through our course, and as a result, he's charging like a thousand a month, and he's doing, I think, I'll ask him next time I see him. Jack, you if you're listening and message me when you hear this. But he's I think he's doing like a session every two weeks now. So it was a session a week for a thousand a month, and I think now it's a session every two weeks for a thousand a month, something like that. And it's like, oh, that starts to be like you've still only got so much capacity, but that starts to be like three, good money, you know? It's like certainly it's and then what I'm trying to convince him to do is well, why don't you hire that person who's a really top coach and get them to deliver the sessions, but under your brand, and pay them 50 bucks an hour instead of 30, you know? But you charge 300 or whatever it is. So it's like it's your and it's your system and it's your that's I think then you've really got some leverage.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Absolutely. And that's the way that I, you know, I'm a I'm the kind of person who tends to look very far ahead, you know. Uh think about things that haven't happened, I worry about things that haven't happened, and I I hope, I hope for things that haven't happened, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

And um but when this thing that hasn't happened happens, then how am I gonna what am I going to do to deal with it when I'm so successful? Because I have I used to do that all the time. My ex used to say to me, but that's that's not a we that's not a problem. We you haven't that you don't even know if it's gonna happen. But like in my head, it's like, oh, definitely when this happens, then I'm gonna have to do this, and it's just like, yeah, just don't worry about it. It might it might not happen. I wouldn't think about it. But okay, sorry, carry on. I interrupted you.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah, absolutely. It's that whole thing, let's cross that bridge when we come to it, isn't it? Um but yeah, like I think about the future like that. I know that there's great potential in what I what I do, what I've built so far. Um really proud of it. And I do look at things in that way because I've been in this space for a while. I've I've listened to you and lots of your guests before. Uh, I've learned a lot from other creators, and that's definitely you know a direction that I'd be hoping, you know, to be in a position someday where I can step back um and bring in other coaches who can deliver uh my products and services as well as me or even better. And yeah, but then I'm the brand and the kind of the I have all the bits set up, as you say. So I just keep the the the well-oiled machine uh running, you know? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, and

Product Market Fit And Going Niche

SPEAKER_02 12:55

it sounds like what you're kind of searching for at the moment is is the is a great product market fit. It's like, okay, is course is it with your audience? Maybe that's not quite right, but the one-to-one stuff is proven. But how do you make that? How do you make it so that you can close a high percentage of people and charge enough money and like trying to get all those bits lined up? And I think if you can find so product market fit is such a big deal. Like, and it's it's one of the things that like we generally only work with people as clients once they've already built an audience and found product market fit. Because those two things are like, I don't know, 10 years work or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a lot of people, right? It's like absolutely then once someone's got that, then I can help come in and go, right, now let's help boost that with better funnels and better email marketing or whatever. But if you don't have good product market fit, the emails don't matter. The sales page doesn't matter. It's like you've got to have the right kind of line lined up of are you selling what people want to buy, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

And I think like I've had you know a certain level of success with selling self-paced low-ticket courses. But um I've also come to realise that, you know, I think I haven't maybe had that, you know, a hundred percent, you know, that product market fit uh fit, as you say. Um where you know people have bought my self-paced courses and some a lot of people, you know, were the right people and they completed the courses uh and got you know got good results. But then I do tend to have a lot of people I think coming into my world, you know, through YouTube and then onto my email list that just they they aren't the right people. And of course, I mean that's gonna happen anyway. That's gonna happen, but I think there's uh it's it's um yeah, I don't know how to describe it really. I uh you know, uh yeah. I think that's why I've kind of decided to go a little bit more niche because things things have been, I think, very broad. You know, my YouTube channel is basically for people who need English for work, and that's that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

So I think it makes sense for me to niche down a little bit and have a a better idea of who my, you know, who my ideal customer is, and then and take it from there. So like that's what I'm going through at the moment over the last six months to twelve months. I've been giving that a lot of thought. And I think that's the future for me now is getting this one-to-one program uh established and then kind of building almost building the business anew around that.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Okay. Well, fingers crossed that you you find in there that product market fit, and people are like, oh yeah, fuck yeah, that's what I want. Because if you do, then it makes everything else easier. Absolutely, absolutely.

Mindset And Confidence Under Pressure

SPEAKER_02 15:39

One of the things that you've said about teaching people business English is that the biggest barrier in language learning isn't ability or motivation, it's mindset. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, what do I mean by that? So, in my experience, uh people often are better than they think they are. Okay. Um and they give themselves a very hard time about their English. My English is so bad, and so on. And I think a lot of that comes from it can come from, you know, one or two negative experiences. Sometimes it goes back to school. It could also be something that happens in a professional context. So um I think people when they can develop a stronger mindset about learning and themselves and their abilities, uh, then they get that confidence which is so huge when it comes to speaking a second language. So, yeah, that's you know, helping people to uh kind of think about themselves differently and about um what they're capable of, um, in with the goal of like really building confidence and setting them up differently so they can approach their language learning or their their pain points in a completely different way and ultimately have more success, get better results, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

How do you do that? How do you how do you build them up? How do you get them to have that confidence?

SPEAKER_00 17:10

How do I do that? Yeah, good question. So um it's something that I actually have started to place more uh to put more focus on. Uh in my last couple of uh self-paced courses that I created, I built this in right in the very first module where I um approach the topic of mindset and I encourage people with uh to to develop some very simple habits using simple techniques, things like very simple things like visualizing themselves in that situation, that important meeting, um smiling, communicating confidently, um, people nodding, um other things like simple preparation techniques before a high-stakes situation presentation or or whatever that may be, negotiation, simple preparation techniques, and then also just reminding them that you know you've been invited to that meeting for a reason, you're good at your job, you're capable, you have the experience, you have the expertise, you're there for a reason. Let your voice be heard, um, and kind of trying to bring that in in the very like when I first meet them, when they first come into a course, whether that's a self-paced course or a one-to-one coaching, and then kind of reminding them throughout. You know, don't forget your voice is uh is important, make your voice heard, and simple things like that. It's it's a work in progress. Um, I've been doing that for a while. It has really resonated with people. People have um given me great feedback, and some people have said like that was the most valuable part of the course or or the coaching. Um and it's something that I want to get better at because I think if I mean, first of all, I have to have a great mindset. I'm I'm always working on my own mindset, you know, uh, or trying to. But if you can, I I really do believe that if you can help uh your coaches or people who buy your courses to develop a stronger mindset, it it can have have such a massive impact and just get them results faster, get them better results, keep them motivated, keep them accountable, and and and that makes sense.

Email Campaign Structure That Converts

SPEAKER_02 19:24

One of the things I wanted to ask you about is you you'd gone through our instant course sales program before. What did you learn from that that maybe someone listening could find useful? What what did it help you to learn to do in your marketing?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Well, yeah. Um lots of stuff. I mean, um just this, you know, how to structure, I think structure was was a big thing, how to structure um a good email promo, you know. Um and I had never I had done things kind of on my own until then by looking at other people's email campaigns and and doing my own research. And this was all before ChatGPT and became big, and you know, uh so just much more structure, structure that made sense, you know, with these warm-up emails, pain, agitate, solution, and also just the also with mindset about how often you can run promos and not being afraid to uh put your offers in front of your potential clients regularly because you know people won't open every email, people will miss things. Um so the structure of running an email campaign um also then about around welcome sequences. I found that whole module really helpful for building uh a welcome sequence that makes sense. Um and to be honest with you, I I I I'm I'm one of those people who's guilty of of not completing a course. You know, I just I haven't got through everything. There's still lots there that I haven't touched and that I um will go back to at some point, you know, dip in and out. Um but yeah, how to just how to write structured campaigns, you know, using that formula that just kind of makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

If you're listening and you're thinking, well, what's this formula they're talking about? I'm gonna f I'm looking for a uh a podcast episode that you can go check out. Um if you go and listen to episode 175, it's called This New Email Marketing Strategy Doubled My Revenue. That was with Joe Armstrong, and I interviewed him because he'd gone through the program and then started using um using our model and kind of talk through like what had you done, how does it work, and then I'm gonna find another couple of examples as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah, so I mean when I first um the first time I used that properly was for a course that I had recently launched, like a beta version, and then I used it for I think the proper launch or either the second kind of cohort.

unknown 21:59

Um

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And it worked really well. And I was like, oh wow, this is cool. And I've continued, and I've continued whenever I've run uh promos, I've continued to use that structure. Sometimes slight like you know, slightly adapted, but um uh more or less following that formula, which just makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

So I I found two other podcast episodes you can listen to to hear more about that approach. It's episode 118, 118, make three million dollars using good email copy in urgency. That was with Monica, and then episode 116, our $25 million funnel and email marketing strategy. So if you listen to those, you'll get a much better idea of like how this all works and what's included. Um, if you go to data drivenmarketing.co slash resources, there is uh an outline. It's called two secret high performing email templates. Okay.

Lead Magnets And Funnel Alignment

SPEAKER_02 22:49

So what's the process for you at the moment of like how does someone go from watching one of your YouTube videos to being uh a customer? What are you promoting lead magnets as the first point to kind of get them onto the email list? Or what's what happens first for you?

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah, so I the current like my main lead magnet at the moment is what I call the professional English phrase booster. And it's a free PDF download, which includes like 50 top phrases for different situations. I think I've got meetings, presenting, uh pro working on projects, very carefully selected uh phrases, uh, PDF download, and that seems to work quite well. Although uh I am, you know, I'm hoping uh to bring out a newer up-to-date lead magnet soon, something that's more aligned with my new uh one-to-one program. But that's the one that I have at the moment, which uh people like. Uh it's been downloaded thousands of times. So people see me on YouTube within the first uh I don't know, 20 seconds usually. I mention it. And uh yeah, it's the link is down there. Um people click on that link. What happens next? Yeah, they get to the very simple page where they can opt in for that lead magnet, and then um uh in the very first email they get, I deliver that uh lead magnet, and then I start uh a welcome sequence where I introduce myself and uh tell them more about me and uh you know slowly you know build them up to I it's it's a bit different than it was. I've kind of paused it for now because I'm working on new things.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Um and then so that's my main lead magnet, and then I have some video specific lead magnets, and I have a couple of course-specific lead magnets. So like if they watch one of my videos on YouTube about small talk, I um encourage them to download a small talk, a free resource on small talk, and then they go into a sequence where ultimately I introduced them to the self-paced course on small talk. And then have you got any trip bar funnel running at all? Um not at the moment. I did in the past, um, but I decided to stop it. It was actually working quite well, but I just didn't feel it was right for the business. Um but I liked uh I that's actually yeah, that's something else that I I I you know learned through you guys um and how to do that, how to create a uh a good tripwire page. And that was really exciting when I started uh because it was something completely new I hadn't done before. And it worked really well, but I decided to kind of stop it just because I didn't feel that it was really helping the business. So um again, it wasn't fully optimized with within my funnel and my other offers, so I but it's something that uh I may go back to if it's if it fits in with what happens next, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, yeah. One of the things that's difficult is trying to line up everything through the whole funnel because you've got you want to do YouTube videos that are gonna get a lot of views, but you only really want views from the people who are possibly going to become a buyer, like the right kind of people. You don't want just entertainment views, you want like educational views, and then you want a lead magnet that lines up with the video so that people are more likely to opt into the lead magnet, but then you want the lead magnet to line up with the offer, and you want the first offer, the tripwire, to line up with whatever you're gonna offer them at the end of the welcome sequence and then whatever your main offer is. And you're kind of trying to get all of that to line up together is is it's almost impossible to make it all work perfectly, but you're trying to kind of optimize over time to find like right, our most valuable customers are these guys, what kind of videos would bring those guys in, what lead magnet would make sense for that video that can that line up with? And it's like, can you kind of start to fine-tune it all so it it fits as best you can? And that's I accept that's like a difficult challenge.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah, absolutely, especially when you have several courses, uh, you know, then there could be the argument for have the simplest funnel possible and have just one product, you know, or have like a a very few, but then of course, um, depending on your business and your goals, you may you may need to have a wider portfolio uh of of different products and and services. So it is tricky to get that right, and that's something that I uh I'm still learning it about, you know. It's a it's a constant, it's an ongoing thing. Um but yeah, now focusing on this new one-to-one um direction and and seeing how I can establish that. It's gonna be interesting to see what happens from there in terms of lead magnet. What's the new lead magnet gonna be? How am I going to kind of tweak my YouTube content or and especially the intros in my YouTube to hopefully get to appeal to more of the viewers that I want?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Have you thought, have you looked at all at like, well, who are the people who do sign up for one-to-one coaching? Like, what have they got in common?

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's it's difficult, okay? So it's yeah, it's it's how do you I know where you're going, like how can you target them, you know, with your content more efficiently. For me, so far, it's because one-to-one coaching is is a higher investment, and these are private people, often they're paying for it themselves. They will generally be living and working in a country where you know they earn the money that makes that possible. You know, they have a higher purchasing power. They um already have good jobs, they are good at their jobs, they're established in their careers, um, and they're serious, they they have opportunities within their companies or maybe outside that are there waiting for them, but there's a gap between their English performance and and getting there. Um, so you know, uh it's also you know, when I look at my YouTube analytics and I see often that you know my number two country is the US, and I'm like, yeah, uh lots of people in the US who are you know non-native speakers who've you know gone to live and work there. And so as I often think, how can I um and then also Europe, of course.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Um, so how can I get more people from those uh regions to you know get eyeballs on my different offers and and you know Yeah, and I know less about YouTube and how to get the right kind of uh people watching the videos, but um what I'm wondering is if we can talk through the ideas of like, well, what might work, just have a little brainstorming session, what might work as a as a tripwire or lead magnet? I've got an idea, and I I can't figure it out if it's a good one yet, but like I wonder if there's something that would target those business professionals as a tripwire that you could sell quite cheaply, but maybe some kind of an uh initial assessment or something like that. Is there anything that you do at the beginning of your one-to-one coaching that you could splinter off and sell separately? Like, is there anything you do in terms of analysing where they're at, what their gaps are? Is there anything you do in terms of helping them make a plan? Like, what's what is there towards the beginning of the coaching? Is there anything you can think of that maybe could be splintered and sold just as an individual thing? Because then that could maybe be your tripwire.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah, yeah, it's a

Paid Assessments As A Tripwire

SPEAKER_00 30:39

good question. I do have uh at the moment, the way I have it set up is um I offer a free, what I call professional English impact analysis. Okay. It's quite quite wordy. Yeah. Um and that is part of the process. So they apply first of all. I I don't just invite anybody for this, they have to fill out an application form. So they go to the landing page, learn about the one-to-one offer, and then next step is apply, and they fill out a form. And based on that form, I will either invite them for this free professional English impact analysis. So, in that 30-minute free session for people who have shown a real interest in the coaching, um, I assess where they are at the moment, I analyze, uh, we talk about like the things that are causing them the most problems at the moment. Okay. And I give them a few tips, uh, tell them what I believe you know is possible, what's the best way forward. If I believe that they would be a good fit for the coaching, I tell them more about that and ultimately, you know, promote that and try and get them to make a decision about that. Um so yeah, maybe a version of that could be like a tripwire or a kind of a a lead magnet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

What if you what if you sold that upfront for I'm just gonna pull a number out of the air here. Like, what do you charge in? Dollars or euros or dollars, okay. What if you charged uh let's say 49 or 99 dollars for that upfront assessment? And then if they decide to go into the program, you refund, you you take that off. But you just you're not selling it as are you interested in our program? If so, you need to take this assessment. You're just selling it as an assessment on its own. Yeah, yeah. Just just keep it really, really simple. But if they go through that assessment, you will help them to see this is where your gaps are, and then it will be an easier sell into would you like to hear about okay, here's where you're at, here's what some a few tips around it. The the thing that we've got that's gonna help you the most is our one-to-one coaching. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want would you like do you want me to tell you about it? If they say no, no problem, you move on. If they say yes, well, you've been invited to basically pitch them on the thing. And then you'd be making some money from those doing those one-to-one things. Eventually, if it works, we don't know that, right? Yeah, but if it worked, you could then get somebody else to do those rather than you doing them. If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter. You know, not much lost, really.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Yeah, it's it's uh it's another thing that I've heard other people doing. So I know a couple of people who do exactly that. They charge for that. And then if someone decides to to go ahead and do it, they give them that off the the full investment. They give them and that that's uh also really interesting. Um another, like I know also some people who are you know converting people to high-ticket one-to-one programs without any kind of call, you know, without any kind of uh you know, face-to-face meeting before. Uh and that's also like very interesting. Like, how do you do that? How do you do that well and efficiently? How does that work exactly? What does that really look like? Is that something that I could do in the future? Um, then I don't need to invest the time on the call. Or as you say, um, bring in uh other people to to do that call, that analysis for me.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah, I don't know how you would do that without the call. You may be through webinars, like the call is the most proven system for selling high-ticket things, and it's also a really good place to start, even if later on, like you look at uh you mentioned Timothy Moser to me before we start recording. And he um he does a um a challenge, I think it's a one-month challenge, and then he does a webinar and he sells on the webinar. But it's like I wouldn't start with that.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

No, I mean, definitely not. If it's a lot of it's taken him a lot of fine-tuning, refining, tweaking, whatever in order to get that to work.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Yeah, definitely. I know um just from listening to that interview that you had with him, that it's been a process of of getting to this, like of a lot of fine tuning. Um, but yeah, I think it sounds like what I don't know Timothy personally, but um it sounds that he's built something really, really interesting and and and great and more power to him. Um but yeah, uh the call. I also I do I mean I like people, I like getting on the call. I want to I like getting to know them. I like uh you know, just especially when it's me who's going to be delivering the coaching initially.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I um I think you should try it. I think set that up as like a you could try that as an offer to your email list. That'd be the easiest first step. Just you know, set up a landing page, a sales page for it, offer it as a $99 thing, see how many people sign up, and then how and then off the back of that to offering the coaching. And then I know you're running a promotion already, but like that would be a different promotion but leading into the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

You know, so you could promote that so you're not promoting the coaching, you're promoting this one off offer. If it works, and it if people like the idea of it, and then people from there are signing up at a good enough rate to the main to the main program, then you could set try setting it up as the tripwire behind the you know, but that's like you know, that's two steps down the road.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

But I think it's definitely worth thinking about, and I I I like the idea of um yeah, it it makes sense, yeah. And uh I'd definitely be up for for uh testing it.

Working Backwards From The Offer

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Yeah. This is this is the most reliable way I've ever found to uh come up with trip wires and lead magnets is to work backwards from the main offer. Um is to say, right, what is there in the main offer that is a a necessary first step of the main offer that you could break off and sell separately? Because then you've not made something new, it perfectly aligns with the main thing. So for example, in my business, what we used to do is we would talk to people on a I would talk to people on a call who wanted some help with their email marketing and their funnels, and I'd talk to them for 45 minutes, and then I would write a go away and I'd write a proposal, and then I'd have another call, and I'd go through the proposal. And what we found was every time when you started actually doing the work, what they told you on that 45-minute call wasn't quite right. You they they didn't remember their numbers quite right, and what they needed wasn't quite what we agreed to do, and so it didn't it didn't line up properly, and it all got confusing. And I took a course from a guy called Brennan Dunn, and Brennan's actually been on the podcast, he's he's uh great guy, and uh episode 149, Brennan Dunn's tips for launching a course.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Um I'll make a quick note there myself.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Um and then I took his course called road mapping, and he was saying for if you are delivering a service for people, then what you should do is not sell the service, is you sell a road mapping session or an audit or a workshop or something that's at the beginning that you would have done anyway as part of the service for planning it out, and then you sell that, and then off the back of that, you sell the main service because that gives people a chance to spend not that much money with you, so they're not had to trust you tons. Like when I first started doing our audit, I would charge 500 bucks. I was like, I'm not completely sure uh how well this is gonna go. Let me everyone would say, Oh, that's a no-brainer. And then over time we increase the price for that front-end offer. And then but it was necessary. We had to do that step first of make a plan before we deliver the plan. And so by doing the full audit and charging for it, we could spend a week going through, analyzing everything, figuring everything out, making a really, really good plan. Then we had a great plan. And then if they wanted to go do it themselves, that was fine, or if they wanted to work with us, well, now they trusted us a lot more because they'd seen us put a lot of effort in and make a great plan and do dig into everything. Whereas we would never have done that if it was for free. And if they haven't spent any money, they've made no commitment. So then that helped as well as that kind of initial stage. And so then I've taken that concept and done that with loads of other people, clients, but also just business friends. And I've gone, okay, how can we splinter something off and then and do that? And it it tends to work very reliably. It tends to be really good. It doesn't guarantee it's going to work in this particular situation, but it means that there's a there's a good chance, right? There's a really good chance. And if it does, if it's if you can sell it, you know that that leads seamlessly into the next step. And then, if you want to get really clever, then you splinter off something from that and you sell that as the lead magnet. So you give that away as a lead magnet, something really small that's at the very beginning. And I don't know what that would be. I haven't got ideas on that.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

It makes total sense, and that's kind of the way I'm thinking of like, okay, when the as I start delivering the I've already started with the first client. So as I start delivering the program, to like start thinking backwards, what's the lead magnet? What's and and what is ultimately a tripware or a low ticket offer that that kind of everything lines up and um yeah, it it makes sense. And I think the the analysis, some kind of you know, like a a really valuable meet, uh, you know, meet up a call um where they get great value and they get also kind of a like a roadmap. Okay, so this is what you really need to focus on to improve and and close those gaps. Um go ahead and do it yourself, as you say, if or you know, I I think this one-to-one coaching will be the you know, get you the results faster and and better. So yeah, it's it's uh it's it's always great to talk to talk to someone about these things, uh, you know, get them um just talk about them out loud rather because I often end up talking to myself about these things.

Funny Closing Stories And Outro

SPEAKER_00 40:37

You know, constantly thinking about what should I do next and what would make sense and da da da. So it's always nice to just have a chat about this stuff. Um because my wife won't listen to me anymore.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

I was chatting with someone the other day, he messaged me as a guy who I'd uh been in the mastermind with, and he messaged me and said how he um he was sat down on Saturday night with his wife with a glass of wine and chilling out, and he turned on he went to YouTube and one of my podcast episodes came up and he he got his wife to watch that on YouTube with him. I'm like But why? Like, she's not interested in selling courses, she's not interested in email marketing and funnels. I was like, dude, watch that in your own time. That's not gonna win you any favour, is that?

SPEAKER_00 41:20

I have to tell you a story.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

I know I'm entertaining, but I'm not as good as Netflix, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

It's really funny, right? I have to tell you something that's kind of along the same lines. It's something that we couldn't um we we it was an idea well intended, but we we just couldn't keep it up. Um so I discovered the podcast quite a good while back, and I thought, oh wow, this is great, and really interesting people. You can learn a lot listening to John and his guests. And I'm in that space, this is great. I like this. But I don't have lots of time available to listen to podcasts and stuff. So like I said to my wife, said, Yeah, this guy and his podcast, and you know what would be cool? Why don't you like why don't you listen to the podcast like once every couple of weeks and then just tell me about it?

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Like this was your idea.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

And like my wife's a very intelligent lady, but she and she knows a lot about this business from listening to me. But um now when I say that out loud, it sounds ridiculous. What was I expecting? What was I asking of my wife? Yeah, you do you listen to it and tell me about it. Like, you know, uh what an uh what an idiot. But yeah, no, she did. She she listened to a few and she liked it, and and but like it I think after two, that was it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um if you're not trying to learn how to build better funnels or online courses, then I don't know that this is yeah uh the podcast for you. Yeah, Derek, this has been awesome. I love what you're doing. I'm really excited to see how it goes with your new offer with the one-to-one coaching. Cheers. Yeah. So the for the listeners, um, I wanted to just let you know the Timothy Moser interview that Derek had mentioned is episode 170, if you want to go and check that out. So that's a good episode. Um Derek, let me know how it goes. Keep me updated. If you if you try out that uh that offer as a tripwire or as a as a separate offer, then then and it works or doesn't work, let me know. I'd be curious to hear either way. Um I think it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

So Yeah, I'll keep you I'll I'll I'll keep you informed.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. No worries. Love this episode. Thank you very much for coming on, and I'll uh talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Yeah, thanks very much. Thanks for having me and uh take care. See ya.